Collected Animals • Defeat - Yeah, it's on the new album

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Post **Posted:** Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:43 am

evan6032 wrote:

Also it’s almost surreal that after all these years I’m sitting here with a physical copy of defeat and listening to it on my stereo

i know this line of convo is happening elsewhere but while i too am suffering from immense bouts of impatience for this album to drop this fact alone - that a song older than the pandemic! - that's been cooking in the anco ether in such a sweet way for such a long time is right now, at this very moment, sitting on my turntable - if that aint' some of that AnCo magic idk what is.

Post **Posted:** Sun Sep 03, 2023 8:25 pm

The sax though. Defeat part 3 is one of the craziest fucking things theyve ever created. It reminds me of Anatevka or sunrise sunset from Fiddler on the roof and i'm not even fucking lying

Post **Posted:** Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:37 am

Still the best song on the album

Post **Posted:** Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:41 am

Yeah, no offense to the rest of the album but there's no contest tbh. They really fucking nailed it with this song.

Post **Posted:** Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:11 pm

can we talk about how utterly bold it was of them to put this as track FIVE on a nine-track album. perfect placement, even if i would have loved it as the closer too

Post **Posted:** Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:59 am

It's perfect there. Works so well as centrepiece. Said this in the other thread but I don’t think it would have worked as a closer. Too much of a protracted, heavy finish. ‘Kings Walk’ does a slightly lighter version of this while ‘Defeat’ itself can totally consume us as the epic centrepiece. Then we get some levity afterwards to help keep the album balanced. I think they chose the perfect place. We're settled into the album and ready to be completely absorbed. Sticking at the end may have been a little fatiguing.

Post **Posted:** Tue Sep 05, 2023 4:00 am

Hmm.. hadn't thought of the idea of 'fatigue' by the time 'Defeat' arrived had it been the closer, but you're right, the listener may have not been as open or willing to stay immersed in the song if they'd already been through the ups and down of 40 minutes of music.

The placement is still a little confounding to me. It's still the C-side as I thought it would be, but that there's 4 and not 3 songs after it still messes with me a bit. I was thinking we'd get Defeat then continue a wind down with Stride, Kings and a mid-tempo type thing in between those two. Instead, we get Gem directly after which is just a freaking WILD choice, and after Stride we get up to dance to Clubs before swooning through the outro of Kings. Wild, I tell ya.

Post **Posted:** Tue Sep 05, 2023 4:30 am

My guess is that they thought the album would need a bit of a lift in the final stretch. Following Defeat with Stride would have been too much emotion to handle. Need a breather and something that bops a little more. So Gem it is. Then we get the late album feels of Stride. And a bit of an album theme coda with Clubs before they close it out.

Post **Posted:** Tue Sep 05, 2023 4:34 am

It just took 2 days but the tracklisting/sequencing has locked in.

Their overdub game is incredible... the Bum Bums on Gem and the sick vocals they added to the Gem chorus.... also the Crazy vocal dive bombs in Kings around 3:30 are so sick and psych that they make me like fr "lol" irl. I love it.

Post **Posted:** Tue Sep 05, 2023 4:40 am

Discovering the little vocal overdubs they add is one of my favourite parts of AC album release time.

Getting things back on topic a bit, it was so awesome hearing Defeat for the first time and coming upon the wordless stuff Dave does in the first section (especially that high part after the first 'chorus' - still melts me) and then the whole build up into part 2. Their overdub game is indeed strong.

Post **Posted:** Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:28 am

i like defeat in the middle since throughout a lot of the live shows it seemed to be the centerpiece, always in the middle of sets. i think it plays a similar role to safer in the 2006 shows

Post **Posted:** Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:34 am

yeh very true. or like Lablakely/Fireworks/Essplode combos in 08/09.

Post **Posted:** Wed Sep 06, 2023 4:56 am

Amazed this one never made the album but I guess they have other plans for it.

Post **Posted:** Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:56 pm

FEEL ON1NE!!! wrote:

i like defeat in the middle since throughout a lot of the live shows it seemed to be the centerpiece, always in the middle of sets. i think it plays a similar role to safer in the 2006 shows

love this take, makes perfect sense. my only "gripe" (though hardly a strongly held beef) is that defeat after magicians can be a slog, but that's magicians' fault, not defeat's

Post **Posted:** Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:58 pm

here's a defeat question: is the single different from the album version?

Post **Posted:** Wed Sep 06, 2023 7:00 pm

They're both 21:58, so I don't think so. Sound the same to me

Post **Posted:** Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:10 pm

build the boats and... wash away...

Post **Posted:** Fri Sep 08, 2023 7:22 pm

FEEL ON1NE!!! wrote:

i like defeat in the middle since throughout a lot of the live shows it seemed to be the centerpiece, always in the middle of sets. i think it plays a similar role to safer in the 2006 shows

There were a few sets in 06 where they opened with Daffy Duck into Safer.

But I agree Defeat is a big centerpiece that ties it all together

Post **Posted:** Sat Sep 09, 2023 3:30 am

nothingmastered wrote:

FEEL ON1NE!!! wrote:
i like defeat in the middle since throughout a lot of the live shows it seemed to be the centerpiece, always in the middle of sets. i think it plays a similar role to safer in the 2006 shows

There were a few sets in 06 where they opened with Daffy Duck into Safer.

But I agree Defeat is a big centerpiece that ties it all together

Star ballroom in NJ, one of my fav boots where they open wit Daffy. There are some sets in 2019-2022 where they close before encore with defeat. It's all good shit.

Post **Posted:** Sat Sep 09, 2023 6:44 am

roopn wrote:

build the boats and... wash away...

This moment gives me chills almost every time. I feel like I've seen a few people say the first section came out slightly too slow, but to me it's absolutely perfect. Not a note out of place, just immaculately paced and performed. The way Avey's vocal melodies sort of meander and trail off with every line, gradually gaining focus when Noah enters on "douse the sheets..." until we're at "JUST GRAB SOMETHING TAKE HOOOOLD" and suddenly the melody and chord progression are both totally direct and yanking at your heartstrings. I suppose I'm describing a pretty standard songwriting technique for building to a chorus, but hearing that formula at such a slow pace just makes it all the more lethal, especially when they nailed every detail this hard. Just a straight up wonder to behold.

Post **Posted:** Sat Sep 09, 2023 7:32 am

I think I’m one of the few that thinks part 1 is more emotionally gripping than part 3

Post **Posted:** Sat Sep 09, 2023 3:44 pm

foxtrot wrote:

I think I’m one of the few that thinks part 1 is more emotionally gripping than part 3

I'm with you. Every time Avey says "lightning crested read your letter" it's like the first time and it's crushing. I prefer the direction in which the first part moves too - toward the build up into part 2 rather than toward the silence at the end of part 3.

Post **Posted:** Sat Sep 09, 2023 7:11 pm

IIIIIIIT BROKE THAT DAAAAAYYYY

Post **Posted:** Sun Sep 10, 2023 8:14 pm

foxtrot wrote:

I think I’m one of the few that thinks part 1 is more emotionally gripping than part 3

you are not!

Post **Posted:** Mon Sep 11, 2023 4:25 am

yeah part 1 is really fantastic, have never felt like it's even a second too long. even if i have my qualms about lyrical and textural tweaks, it's still essentially perfect on its own terms, and once noah's harmonies come in and the first chorus rolls around they have me entirely in the palm of their collective hand

Post **Posted:** Mon Sep 11, 2023 4:39 am

Nice to see I'm not alone. So many lyrics get me in that first part. And I enjoy the melodies even more. And the flute type sound is just divine.

Post **Posted:** Mon Sep 11, 2023 4:53 am

Avey's oooohs in the first part are exquisite too

Post **Posted:** Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:09 am

i love how part one is at heart just a verse/verse/pre-chorus/chorus/verse/pre-chorus/chorus pop song. puzzles me whenever people say it should be x number of minutes shorter as though it's a two sails type ambient drone that can just be shortened or lengthened at will

i'm being uncharitable, most people who say that probably just mean it shouldn't be so slow. however! they are incorrect

Post **Posted:** Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:22 am

Have they done itw for this rec ?

Post **Posted:** Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:53 pm

When Avey sings "stay grounded like THUHHH spruce" that one particular time in the second chorus, it never fails to make me smile. God what a great live-to-studio translation of this song. Gave me ASMR-like shivers earlier which almost never happens, completely transportive experience

Post **Posted:** Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:59 am

Love that bit too. His vocal delivery throughout is so perfect.

Post **Posted:** Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:08 am

It makes me happy that they are allowing more vocal oddities like that on this album. I think a lot of times their vocal delivery can feel a bit constrained in studio (particularly Noah's stuff) but they let it flow on Defeat thankfully

Post **Posted:** Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:24 am

Yeah the more I think about it, the more I feel like this recording is something of a miracle. Sometimes nailing it in the studio just means that they didn't bury or outright change a song's best element that existed in the live version. But here, they went above and beyond. In a song where most of it's gargantuan length is spent floating along without any solid tempo, not a single note feels out of place. In the first section, Panda's spare taps on the kick drum and hand drum rolls come in and out at just the right times to compliment Avey's wondering vocals. The buildup to the second section is JUST right. Every vocal in the third section is just... well, beyond words. I genuinely think this is one of the best songs they've ever recorded, in conversation with other untouchable classics (banshee beat, fireworks, safer, etc. you all know the pantheon)

Post **Posted:** Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:02 am

Also I just revisited the 2019 meow wolf recording for the first time in a while, and I didn't even realize how much more they slowed it down after this! I remember at the time being bewildered at just how slow it was, now it sounds like they're almost rushing through it.

Post **Posted:** Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:23 pm

idk if this is interesting to people but i had my freshman developmental english class at a small liberal arts in central ohio listen to defeat and write about the experience of the song, overall, reviews were mixed but i was pleasantly surprised to see - at least affectively - how much they seemed to enjoy actually sitting down and listening to music and try not to do anything else. I'll spoiler some highlights below.

Spoiler: show

Post **Posted:** Sun Oct 01, 2023 1:13 am

i know we've mostly put the "defeat would be too bleak of a closer/it's not bleak" debates behind us but i just wanna say that the brilliance of the final refrain is how ambiguous it is, that it can either be bleak or uplifting depending on how you interpret the phrases to relate to each other. if the main thought is "isn't it now? oh no, not now" and the "defeat" is just there to punctuate and inform the tone, then sure, it's totally despair inducing, but you can just as easily interpret it so that defeat is itself the thing that isn't now (isn't it now? ...defeat? oh no, not now). if viewed that way, then it tells us that there's still a bit of leftover space to fill with hope. and the whole point is that it's both of these readings simultaneously. it's an emotional paradox that refuses to resolve itself, a thematic optical illusion telling you to languish and to fight on all at once, using the exact same words to do each

and that's why it would have been a perfect closer okay sorry done

Post **Posted:** Sun Oct 01, 2023 1:38 am

Very well said, you pretty much nailed what I love about that moment in the song. It's such a complex emotional landscape, I'm continually amazed that they pulled it off as well as they did.

Post **Posted:** Sun Oct 01, 2023 1:55 am

holy f my buddy just got admitted to the psychward cuz he tripped and listened to this album at the same time for his first tripping experience! send good vibes!!

Post **Posted:** Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:06 am

I been thinking about it and defeat sounds like a relative of 09 banshee beat

Post **Posted:** Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:22 am

defeat is like if banshee beat grabbed a banana and pretended it was a gun and blew its butt off