[captainlunatic]

I listen to Defeat when I fall asleep. I listen to Defeat when I wake up. You could say I kind of AM Defeat

[captainlunatic]

The scratchy strings and Noah's tremolo-effected vocals go so well together, it almost sounds like they're one instrument. It also reminds me, for the first time since Sung Tongs, of when I couldn't figure out if it was Noah or Dave singing a certain part. If I hadn't seen them play it live, I probably would've thought it was Dave singing over himself, which kinda rules

[archie]

kwanzan wrote:

foxtrot wrote:

andthephantom wrote:

alvinrowx wrote:

After repeated listens, I think everything doesn't totally click with me.

Not a big fan of these "random arpeggios" in the background, in the first part. What I usually love about their songwriting is their unique way of blending sounds and dynamics into their rhythmic patterns and melodies, which creates something like a driving force, even when the song is slow. Usually, every sound seems to fall into place, exactly where it was intended. I can't feel all of that in the first minutes. It's like Avey's voice was just put over the arpeggios, and the arpeggios themselves sound like random playing around a few notes... Sounds like filler instrumentations, and the result is a bit static, imo. :/

It gets better and better though. My favorite part is the last one (from 17:25 to the end), in which I can fully recognize what I love about their music, at last : Avey, Panda and all the sounds responding to each other, to create something dynamic and cohesive, that flows in a beautiful way. I especially love Noah's delicate singing.

I also feel like the transitions between each part don't work as well as on other "patchwork songs" like on Fall Be Kind, in Alvin Row, Mr. Fingers, or even TTG.

I hope it will grow on me but I'll stop listening to it until the album comes out.

Great post - it doesn't reflect my own feeling about the song. But I'm grateful for the diversity of opinions, and I can totally get your response to the opening section vocals etc.

As for the transitions . . . they work for me on Defeat . . . they don't work for me so far on Magicians. That's the one I'm anxious to hear in the studio version - because I love the parts of that song but I'm not sold that they fit together like they should.

I hear the first part the same way I hear stuff like Daffy Duck - just kinda amorphous waves of ambient sound that create a dreamy effect. other parts are much more rhythmic or cohesive.

the transitions in these types of AC tracks are always less 'neat' and 'compositional' and more about just fluidly shifting the atmosphere. like they're often basically just fade ins of new parts - bros, safer, graze etc.

hi all, longtime lurker drawn out of hiding by this incredible song.

i agree with a lot of what alvinrowx said and wanna throw in my two cents, for what it's worth (about 2 cents, probably).

firstly, i wanna say i feel like they did it. i have quibbles, but this still feels like such a profound success, a real high point in their discog when ppl look back on it in 50 years. i really feel like i can rest easy, which hasn't always been true with their studio recordings.

like many here, i had such an intense and moving experience the first time i heard the music box village version, and i think it will always have a special place in my heart. and esp given taht we might get an official live recording, i feel very happy that i'll be able to have both versions. no need for their only to be one.

ok delving in:

personally, i feel like 22 mins is a bit too slow. i don't want quite as fast as mbv, but i'd be quite happy with this thing being like 18.

i like the idea of "Animal Collective return with a 22-min song!", which was how the press covered it. but i wonder if that was part of avey's motivation in a way; he wanted to have written a >20 minute song because the massiveness of that number j seemed fitting.

personally, i think it feels plenty massive at like 17-19... and this is all by way of saying i think the first part suffers the most from the slower pace from recent shows and the studio version. it feels a little plodding to me, whereas it felt more urgent in the mbv performance (this is also true but to a far lesser extent about the final DEFEAT!s imo).

i don't think the verses of the 3rd part suffer at all from the pace tho. in fact, i feel like the studio version with those panda harmonies is THE definitive version of the third part, which is a change for me because a part of me will always imagine the version of this album that would have come out in 2020 and only feature avey, deakin and, geologist. i love panda, both solo and band, don't get me wrong, but i feel like that's the kind of radical move that they aren't really willing to make anymore. sure you get man of oil or soundtrack stuff, but i don't think they can be as playful and experimental with members in the big releases (i'm in the "get out of this Domino contract, go back to Paw Tracks, and starting being freaky" camp)

back to the song... i mean, goddamn, the first time i heard the studio "onccccee wasss a goooodd wayy (oncee was a goodd way)" i nearly lost it, and then "And praise for the underdog / That was you with the goodd dooooooog" came and i DID lose it. just incredible. this song gives me a feeling i've never had before.

(incidentally the synth line--or piano--that plays tantalizingly behind the lyrics and does that very debussy-sounding descent around the first line of the pt 3 versus is insanely good as counterpoint and just as sound)

re: foxtrot, i think you are totally right in making comparisons to safer, graze, etc. there is so much precedent for what happens here in songs that are widely loved... AND YET. I guess what i'm saying is that a lot of my problems with the transition and the 2nd section totally feel like my fault for being attached to live stuff, and ppl hearing this for the first time would never guess all my ridiculous complaints.

but yeah, don't really like the transition that much. the drumming feels very graze in a re-tread kind of way (there are moments that feel very feels, to be fair, but to me it channels that era more than it j copies it). the singing in the transition is probably what i like least. to me it just feels very enya. and i mean, i like enya, but i never would have thought defeat of all songs needed some enya. also... avey's bass, that ascending, descending riff. i just canNOT get into avey's use of bass. i feel like the textures always sound sorta goofy and plunky and basic, and totally takes me out of the out-of-world vibes of the rest of the song. i sorta can vibe with it on Saturdays, and i get his whole thing about how new instruments can make you think in different ways, but to me it j doesn't work too well.

i'm p happy with the middle proper tho. it doesn't hit like it did live at MBV (i still wish they had j incorporated some of the instruments used by the collaborators at MBV, but oh well) or even elsewhere... but also, it. is. not. live. it's a recording! so i feel like it's ok if it doesn't quite have that live energy with freer vocalization from avey.

anyway, those are my minor gripes. it feels good to express them, sorry if they make no sense to you! i still goddamn love this song and am j so so grateful for it; been playing it non-stop, and it's a wild, multi-layered journey every time.

welcome to your new life of intermittent posting fueled by irrelevant boosts of confidence.. great post but i have to say..... (i will quickly get out of the way that its a bass synth on saturdays... avey is the best bassline writer alive in the western music culture)...

i dont think they give a fuck how long this thing is!! have you heard their music, their lyrics? the perspective that it comes from? it transcends that surface-level "woa 20 minute song" consciousness... give him some credit, i dont think hes thinking in those terms. the press frame it as that "comeback epic masterpiece" because these fellas wanted to put out an expensively recorded piece of god that in no way is a "single" or commercial product and their PR team needed to figure out a way to make that something to write about so they can make enough money from people buying it to not only pay back all that money they spent at the studio but maybe even enough to pay their rent and get the geo babies some oats before they trod off to school in the morning. this motherfucker was stoned at his juno and accidentally wrote a sprawling song of sorrow and joy and the evolution of consciousness ("the mirror the what have we become?") and happens to be in a spot where he can work on it for years and turn it into this Michelangelo .Wav File that we all have resting on our respective lappys and desktops at the moment. it is not a statement of artistry or anything like that. first part second part third part whatever. my god what a gift!

[archie]

also not sure why avey didn’t sing “I see you”? Was he out of breath or is this the climax of a decades long prank against us

[roopn]

Juicy post Archie love it. Spot on about the mirror line

[hatredcopter]

more time passed between the live debut of defeat and its studio release than the live debut of touch of grey and its studio release

[foxtrot]

more time passed between the live debut of defeat and its studio release than between STGSTV and Feels

[muark]

foxtrot wrote:

more time passed between the live debut of defeat and its studio release than between STGSTV and Feels

[Hellomark]

Listened to the first section of this while driving to work this morning, big puffy clouds around a heavenly sunrise, caught a glimpse of a rainbow right around the second "grab something take hold..." chills

[kwanzan]

thanks for all the kindness everyone!

re: archie, i don't think it's SO controversial to hypothesize that they gave some thought to the run-time of their longest by far (damn, this is true right? alvin row and visiting friends both <13, 1st track on meeting of the waters is like 13 i think. what am i forgetting?) studio recording...

but i def agree they weren't thinking about it in marketing terms.

love your interpretation about the evolution of consciousness. stuff like "And hopefully then the earth is quiet" also gives me the vibes of an apocalypse comes to undo all the violence humanity has caused to the earth as it has evolved in some sort of breath of the wild, yokohama kaidashi kiko way: defeat is scary and devastating but also opens up possibilities that can be hopeful and redemptive...

deeply gorgeous bittersweet song. what a great time to be a fan.

[destiny]

they def just write the music the run time is prob just happenstance of the performance

[Jam]

If I thought that the members of AC thought about their music like that I probably wouldn’t listen to them

EDIT: This sounds mean — I think it’s easy to forget that the creators behind our favorite works of art don’t think about their work in the same way we do as fans. Part of what makes AC so special to me is the spiritual place all of their creative decisions come from. I cannot reconcile that with a masturbatory desire to slow down an 18 minute song just so that you can say your song was over 20 minutes. That’s not what it sounds like when we as fans are obsessing over things and thinking “why did they do that” but if we translate those speculations into potential behaviors it starts to sound weird.

[wilandhugs]

Cool write up but Avey's bass is my favorite thing ever. Made me so happy as a bassist to play along to something AC without jamming, and damn if it isn't a "dream tone". But different strokes I guess. I liked live defeat but it always just tranced me out too much in person, and when I heard it in boots it sorta felt like it needed an extra dimension. Then I heard the studio version, and as I expected, they made it everything I could ever want in a 20+ minute AC song. I thought the transitions were a big reason why to me, kinda felt like it added an 'AC leitmotif' as well as just delivering... but yeah. I can't do a while big defeat write up like the rest of y'all I just love the song a lot lol. Maybe one day, but I don't feel I have anything to say that hasn't been said before about this one. Saving that sort of thing for Magicians hehe

[ovid]

captainlunatic wrote:

The scratchy strings and Noah's tremolo-effected vocals go so well together, it almost sounds like they're one instrument. It also reminds me, for the first time since Sung Tongs, of when I couldn't figure out if it was Noah or Dave singing a certain part. If I hadn't seen them play it live, I probably would've thought it was Dave singing over himself, which kinda rules

So I assumed that higher Beatles psych filter voice was Panda's, but I think it's just a 2nd Avey. In fact, I kinda was thinking the middle percussive bit AND the "justice wanders" part are just doubled Avey.

[headroom)))]

FEEL ON1NE!!! wrote:

they def just write the music the run time is prob just happenstance of the performance

Iono, maybe.... But I think there was a conscious effort to make sure the length of the song fit on one side of a record.

captainlunatic wrote:

The scratchy strings and Noah's tremolo-effected vocals go so well together

Yes! Super ghostly. That tone of voice is so haunting and the tremelo makes it feel like I'm unearthing lost/discarded footage of something super personal.
-----------------

I wish the last section was longer and the Ren Fair middle part was shorter or had some nuances/changing drum fills that made it less repetitive. But I've never been able to connect with that part. The return to the song after that part seems a little forced or awkward.

I think its a great song. It's not the mind melter it was seeing it live, but still amazing. Wish Avey embraced the auto tune more, he uses it in a super warped wild way (RIP Passerby and kinda Cherokee too). It would've been cool to hear the ISNT IT NOW! parts as monstrous as they used to be. But it is inspiring and cool to hear his voice so naked, and hear him still going for it and getting visceral with it. I kinda wished there was a little more room between each instance of the AT/PB vocals. One thing that really stuck with me when hearing it the first time was the perception of space that the synth part created. I always see desert imagery or vast barren distances when I hear that synth peak and resolve. I kinda want to live in that zone a bit more.

The delayed bass sounds super cool, like its not even trying to be musical, but more like hearing a force field or magnetic hum.

My hope is that this song is the first track on the album. If its the last, then I'm sure to have a weird/fucked up day thinking "Isn't it now? Oh no, not now" I need a resolution man! The existential dread is too heavy a note to leave on.

Still haven't given it the test, will get back to you from Venus

[destiny]

IIIIIIIIIT

BROKE THAT DAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

[destiny]

Man what a fucked up song. Ending is an orchestra. Currently in love with the third section. The whirling woodwind-y instrument sound that runs around and is really prominent during the very ending. The gurdy is at it's best here also. Like they are playing it over the mountaintops. Not bad but i'll get back to you

Edit: Recalled a post made in this thread saying "Defeat... oh no not now" on a locked groove to end the album. God i would fucking cry

[hatredcopter]

foxtrot wrote:

more time passed between the live debut of defeat and its studio release than between STGSTV and Feels

Holy shit

[Slippi's Applesauce]

ovid wrote:

captainlunatic wrote:

The scratchy strings and Noah's tremolo-effected vocals go so well together, it almost sounds like they're one instrument. It also reminds me, for the first time since Sung Tongs, of when I couldn't figure out if it was Noah or Dave singing a certain part. If I hadn't seen them play it live, I probably would've thought it was Dave singing over himself, which kinda rules

So I assumed that higher Beatles psych filter voice was Panda's, but I think it's just a 2nd Avey. In fact, I kinda was thinking the middle percussive bit AND the "justice wanders" part are just doubled Avey.

i think you might want to get some new ears from the earring store

[ovid]

Sure but um. Like fr what do yal think, is the high, warbly filtered harmony on "mother looking for her daughter" part rlly panda? When the high voice says "sheeeeelter" it does NOT sounds like panda to me. But maybe the filter is just fucking with me

i was stoked that maybe they were not dogmatic about panda doing all the harmonies... like they just pick the voice that is most suited or sumn. Or panda was like, nah i dont need to sing on that part, you do it

[captainlunatic]

No way Panda would give that part up to Avey right? I think Panda just nailed it that fucking hard. Maybe if they still posted here we could ask them looool

[ovid]

Shit now I wanna know. Thought it was panda first 3~ times just out of assuming. But then I focused on it. And like no Deak right? I think we envisioned all 3 during middle, but again, I'm just hearing 2 avey's in the middle.

[Slippi's Applesauce]

I can’t hear anything but panda, not sure why he wouldn’t have done it

To me it sounds like Deakin added a middle harmony on the two “know” lines in the first chorus. And yeah in the middle section I think he is doubled on that lower part in the chorus pannned left and right, he does a great job blending his voice with Avey or panda. Remember the strung verse debacle before josh stepped in and confirmed it haha

[bullseye]

ovid wrote:

Shit now I wanna know. Thought it was panda first 3~ times just out of assuming. But then I focused on it. And like no Deak right? I think we envisioned all 3 during middle, but again, I'm just hearing 2 avey's in the middle.

Seems like you been sitting under magnolias and getting high. It's panda, no doubt about it!

[Tropic]

For any naysayers, there is a minute in this song for every year they've been a band and not one of them overstays its welcome

[captainlunatic]

when panda sings "where did it change? coming of aaa-aaaa-aaaaage"

vocals are such a slam dunk throughout the entire song but especially in the 3rd section. re: feel on1ne's mountaintop description, yes, i imagine a giant avalanche crashing down a mountain when i listen to it

[Hellomark]

Something about the last "frightened mother" section is so intense, like the song knows it's dying and is closing in on itself. It's heartbreaking, and then the final rounds of "DEFEAT" afterward feel almost strangely triumphant, like the confrontation with defeat feels like a relief just for granting some finality to the long and strange journey you've been on.

[Cooper]

Roommate said Defeat sounds like heroin music. Girlfriend said “this song is weird”

[Mr_Neffets]

I thought this was good from first listen but just want to add another voice stating this is a return to something magical that i unfortunately don’t find very often at all in music anymore. The contrast of Avey’s “isnt it now?” and Panda’s hopeful, but fading “oh no, not now” ranks easily with the best they have ever done. There have been great moments in recent years. Like Strung With Everything made me think “wow this is a return to form, sounds like Feels but updated” but Defeat needs no comparison to their past masterpieces because it stands alone in its magic, and importantly something that I don’t think they could’ve done in their earlier years. This is the kind of music that makes you feel gratitude for life and the privilege of living in a time that allowed me to connect with this band.

[Saferintheflowers]

So wait, is defeat confirmed to be still be on the next LP for sure? I really hope so!

I'm so upset bc I've been in a shitty jam for the last month or so and things have finally taken a 360 and I went this morning to pre-order my copy of the EP and its fucking sold out! 11

[headroom)))]

I stopped listening this on Spotify and just listen to the wav file now, and man oh man is this a beautiful piece of music. The tones they got in this recording are sublime. I like to think of the dark AC songs like Wastered, Cuckoo, Ice Cream Factory and have to say this song really feels like an epic version of those. Sad and wispy, then offensively upbeat, then mysterious and brooding, and finally devastating.

I'm curious how some people interpret the last section as optimistic. I hear it in two ways.
1.)A person putting up his final battle against something and warding off the enemy (oh no not now) and finally fading out from exhaustion (Def-)
2.)An endless hell of never being able to figure out when this period of time ends. Always wondering if now is the time things will change but being reminded that it is not.

Avey wrote this months before the pandemic. What the hell was he feeling? The song is too linked with pandemic and global human suffering for me. Would be super interested in him talking about what the emotional genesis for this track was.

[captainlunatic]

headroom))) wrote:

I stopped listening this on Spotify and just listen to the wav file now, and man oh man is this a beautiful piece of music. The tones they got in this recording are sublime. I like to think of the dark AC songs like Wastered, Cuckoo, Ice Cream Factory and have to say this song really feels like an epic version of those. Sad and wispy, then offensively upbeat, then mysterious and brooding, and finally devastating.

I'm curious how some people interpret the last section as optimistic. I hear it in two ways.
1.)A person putting up his final battle against something and warding off the enemy (oh no not now) and finally fading out from exhaustion (Def-)
2.)An endless hell of never being able to figure out when this period of time ends. Always wondering if now is the time things will change but being reminded that it is not.

Avey wrote this months before the pandemic. What the hell was he feeling? The song is too linked with pandemic and global human suffering for me. Would be super interested in him talking about what the emotional genesis for this track was.

it's the second one for me, definitely the most intentionally crushing thing they've recorded in an emotional sense in a while. hoping that things will be different this time but getting hit with the same lesson again. almost prankster-ish in a sense which i know the boys operate on that wavelength or at least used to.

the twin peaks: the return of anco endings

[jerry wonder]

somehow the song was too long for me live, but not recorded, I loved certain parts of it but hearing it now recorded it has somehow coalesced in a way that is more engaging for me.

[real slippi]

Listened to the boots of this on and off over the years and always loved it. Loved it live. Despite knowing it inside and out, I shed actual human tears upon hearing the recorded version of this the first time. Got the feels like it was 2005 again. So unbelievably special!

[howsoever]

If they ever play it live again, I'd love to hear the first "Isn't it now?" as an Avey scream. At least once

[meys]

captainlunatic wrote:

the twin peaks: the return of anco endings

legit hadnt thought about this before but if this IS the closer it is 100% analogous to "what year is this?"

[Dusty]

Cooper: “Isn’t it now?”
Carrie Page: screams bloody murder
Cooper: “yeah it’s definitely now”

[Jam]

Oh Golly! Ten minutes until I get back to work, just enough time to listen to half of Defeat!

[blindmowing]

I've been very conservative in my listening to Defeat. I'm happy I know it's on the album so I don't overplay it, but part of me wishes I didn't know it wasn't a standalone piece, because then I'd use this time waiting for TS2 by overplaying Defeat week in and week out.

Anyway, because I've been conservative with my listens, I'm probably finding things you've all found already, but here's some comments/questions:



1. What's that field recording/sound that they play each time before Avey says "defeat!" Kinda like a creaking chair but definitely not that, or like a chain being pulled rhythmically...can't put my finger on it.

2. Hearing all the "Geo sounds" on Defeat is making me very excited to hear all the other little sounds he's added to the studio versions of the rest of the tracks.

3. The way Panda's "oh no, not now"s slowly disintegrate, and get quieter, then as well Avey's "defeats" getting quieter, shorter, then ending on "def---" reminds me a lot of William Basinski's Disintegration Loops. They did a really good job at subtly showing that deterioration from full power/passion to at the end...sounding quiet and defeated. Brilliant.

4. Is this the most musicians that have ever appeared on one AC track?

[foxtrot]

You’re really tempting me to go give it another listen however I, like you, am trying very hard to stay away and keep it a little fresh for TS2 which I will inevitably play the absolute fuck out of