[foxtrot]

Listening to 2022 Defeat for the first time in ages. I love this song so much. It means a lot to all of us. I am so desperate for it finally get a release. Drives me mad how long they've had to sit on these other new songs. That said, it has lost none of its power.

[blindmowing]

"Defeat is ever-changing because the universe is ever-changing and we feel different about the song now" (not verbatim)

Avey in that latest email interview . . . almost seems to hint that studio "Defeat" will be very different from any live version we've heard. Panda had alluded to the same in the past.

[Stories and Games]

blindmowing wrote:

"Defeat is ever-changing because the universe is ever-changing and we feel different about the song now"

aww that's a very gentle profound way of him to tell us to shut up about it lol

[Stan]

Hehe I will look forward to hearing a markedly different evolved form.

Has anyone watched Father Ted?

[muark]

Can't wait for studio Defeat to blow Stan's mind to smithereens and have him question his entire reality

[Stan]

That would be great, yeah. Good old days.

[Fovrodi]

Midnight Special walked so Defeat could run

[andthephantom]

I'm curious to see how the sax is incorporated into the studio version. The only live version I've seen with the sax (can't remember which show) totally underwhelmed - I could barely hear it, and it didn't seem like there was much going on. That said, I love the IDEA of it, and, done right, I could see it adding some cool textures.

[Tropic]

They're releasing this shit backwards

[captainlunatic]

This is their Terrapin Station

[destiny]

This vision of defeat i hate. 5 minute defeat, 2nd section autotuned hocketing. I want to not be right so bad

[opposite field]

Defeat (Black Dice Remix)

[unrecordednight]

feel like the middle section of defeat is one of those rare instances where it's hard to make it sound good live but it will be really cool in the studio, feel pretty confident that they made it sound good in the studio despite it being inconsistent live

[rohcti]

Tropic wrote:

They're releasing this shit backwards

Lmao. They should

[speen]

unrecordednight wrote:

feel like the middle section of defeat is one of those rare instances where it's hard to make it sound good live but it will be really cool in the studio, feel pretty confident that they made it sound good in the studio despite it being inconsistent live

I agree with this, was thinking about it. The only time that midsection has really sounded right to me was the very first performance at the music box village - that shit was CRAZY, but we all know it won't sound like that in the studio lol. I am really looking forward to hearing how they handled it though.

[headroom)))]

All i really hope for is for Avey's vocals in the last section (Isn't it now/oh no not now) to sound super pitched down/baritone/evil, and for panda's to be high and innocent. Devil/Angel vibes. I honestly feel the Music Box version is overrated. Iono, the string section instrumentation is kinda not my bag, reminds me of a lot of tacky 2000's indie bands. That last Blast Radio version has been my go to. If the album version sucks, I'll just listen to that. That's what i do for Brother Sport.

[Stan]

I don't really care about the strings, it helps with the build up, quite feverish excitement but yeah, bit cheesy. What's so much better about the Music Box version is the vocal melody and lyric. It's much more euphoric and cathartic. In the newer version, both in melody and delivery, Dave sounds almost bored. It's so low emotion in comparison. That's typical of Animal Collective, though. None of their songs ever become more exciting, they round off all the corners and tone down the vocals. Whether or not this is to preserve their voices live, I dunno, can't blame them, but listening back to SJ recently, I found the vocal delivery so so so much more exciting than any record they've done since (although Laughing Hieroglyphic touched the same emotion). That's what I would love for Defeat but there's literally no chance of that happening. They're a strange, frustrating band considering the staggering, thrilling potential of their songwriting.

[Stories and Games]

very much agree on it being a melody thing above all else. that's always most important to me for better or worse, and the the primary power of the middle section of defeat is that it's just a classically great melody. new one is so unspecial in comparison, and it honestly does blow my mind to think that avey doesn't see it as a particularly consequential change. like i still loved the 2019 version of it just because panda was still singing that melody (honestly all the 2019 version needed was some more exciting percussion to make it totally a-ok)

same deal as the change in passerby's melody from '19-'21. like, i could get how it could seem theoretically inconsequential to switch up the ascending and descending bits like that, but it makes all the difference in the world and i'd expect one of my favorite songwriters ever to realize that yknow?

i think the explanation is something avey has explicitly said in interviews: when you spend too much time with a song, you start to lose sight of exactly what made it great in the first place. if that happens before the song is actually finished, you're liable to make what seem like very strange decisions in finishing it because you can't tell which bits should and shouldn't be subject to change

[Stories and Games]

like really what made the mbv version was 1) the melody and lyrics (largely unintelligible though they were) 2) that one girl wailing away on a crash cymbal and 3) the wicked cello/sax parts. i can talk myself into thinking the new version is still, like, a decent slab of music, but i just can't ignore the fact that it no longer contains a single one of those elements, yknow?

(will accept the hypothetical argument that that those huge synth stabs are a serviceable replacement for the girl wailing away on a crash cymbal)

[Stan]

Amen to all of that.

[dio]

but like in 2023 still talking about a band we loving changing notes or not screaming as much on record has to be beyond over right. like we have to move on. in 2023 as a 93 year old man it really is painful for me to see this ancient ass decade old discourse occurring. am i crazy? i dont know, plz dont interact, i have blocked the offending parties but still i cant help but engage kill me

this is a fabricated conflict and topic of conversation given it only exists for those who insist on consuming live recordings YET still judging studio recordings i cant do it kill me plz kill me i dont want to exist in this world where art has become akin to video game or app development where changes from the like E3 demo or whatever are being scrutinized

"why is avey not screaming" and "why did avey shift a few notes" might NOT be valid discourse lol idk!!!!! just spit balling. Maybe something like that is literally why fan forums exist but like idk. i am not anti criticism, i am anti extreme, voracious and oblivious redundancy

but of course this will make me sound anti critisism psycho "stan" apparently who invents reasons for liking things idk idk

i hate defeat and hope it never comes out its literally not that good all i like is like 3 lines from last half and ive seen it live 5x cuz im privelaged or something idk.

anyway love the band looking forward to skiffs 2 in october!!!!

[dio]

idk also i fully like Stories And Games comment it was an interesting read. So what am I even saying with first comment idk. I think I kinda want a little self awareness where maybe like... could we make a whole thread for demoitis posts/fears/critiques and contain all that stuff there? idk idk

I feel like i sound so anti-posting-at-all when I've recently tried to express this. I'm sorry like im literally failing to really express something here.

Also, the mid section of Defeat never felt like a melody really so fixating is so weird, its like a bombastic rhytmic thing, its like i cant even track some complaints. The Passerby thing did seem like willfully kinda... willfull, but again you'd only even notice or know if you had been voraciously consuming boots, and I don't know if the albums are specifically for those people lol. Like live heads already have their desert... its the live thing... Demanding perfect replication on studio is just like... i literally cannot mentally approach that idea, it does not compute i dont think any artist ever has approached their art with the kind of vocabulary we employ when discussing demoitis and thank fucking god

[dio]

i know for sure im going too deep but on some level, criticizing artistic decisions re live-to-studio transitions is inherently missing the point of like. art? as though its a "product". And once you hear a single live version YOU more than the band know how it should be recorded. anyway idk i feel like i sound so mean and crazy/dumb but i guess I am trying to engage with this idea.

my dumb ass saw live defeat in new orleans both times. it was sick. i never once expected it would even be recorded at all lol. i thought that whole set was a wild one-off. idk if that means anything but like, man its such a special song. criticizing theoretical future releases of it feels idk. like doo doo

[dio]

headroom))) wrote:

Iono, the string section instrumentation is kinda not my bag, reminds me of a lot of tacky 2000's indie bands.

lol when i showed up to the Music Box shows my exact thought seeing violins and shit around was like.... hmmmm uh oh idk if thats really ACs thing, thats like Arcade Fire shit. idk if these nola musicians know whats up. Cuz like im from nola area too so I was almost stressed at these local musicians potentially not "getting" AC's vibe or something(?). Idk but then it was all kinda beautiful and I do actually like the strings on the OG recording. But Im also fully okay with no strings on record cuz thats not really their bag.

And to clarify: idk who those last few posts are for maybe its non sequitur in this thread, but as expressed recently, I am almost experiencing fatigue with fans coming here to complain about like, studio recording choices. I just like dont need to read more of that, personally, unless it is truly novel and unique i guess idk anyway love all of u except stan bye

[dio]

Last I swear then I'll take a break from CA for 7 years: The melody in the middle of Defeat consists of like 3-4 notes. They were going up for the first 2 performances, then they started going down after that. But because we first heard them going up-- nonsensically i might add, do we have any idea at all what lyrics were at nola show?-- now when they go down we hate this band completely. or like. we want to inflict violence on them. is that accurate???!?!?!?! We still don't know what he's even saying there!!!!! it is the worst part of the song by far and always was!!!!! dont answer plz i love u all bye

I sometimes wonder if some fans have slipped into like... being policemen. Waiting for their chance to be like "thats not how you played in 20XX at that one show!!!! busted!!!!". Like did you even like it that way or is that just literally the first way you heard it period. That should not be our vibe

[roopn]

dio it's ok, it's all going to be fine. I'm sick of defeat discourse too but people have nothing else to talk about. every perspective is different and different people find different elements dear to them. I agree it's kinda rude to say the band are making wrong decisions etc because it's their art, but ultimately we're not talking to the band directly, so people can make whatever observations they want. And yea some of the criticism is down to minutia like a couple of notes but that's what music comes down to. Tiny note choices like that are very often very important.

[jfw7]

I agree with every post on this page

[Stan]

On the AC subreddit, you can downvote anything you don't want to read so you end up with this lowest common denominator zero sum hall of mirrors where everything is fine, everyone feels like you do and dissent is quickly, quietly hidden from view. It's a fascinating social phenomenon exploring what it would be like if art wasn't a two-way process of expression and appreciation but a means of social conformity and soma.

[headroom)))]

Stan wrote:

listening back to SJ recently, I found the vocal delivery so so so much more exciting than any record they've done since (although Laughing Hieroglyphic touched the same emotion).

I feel your let down that Avey doesn't scream as much on record anymore. Especially since he's an incredibly great screamer. Big question for you tho: Do you think the recorded versions of Strawberry Jam songs are better than the pre-album live versions?

I enjoyed hearing why you guys like MBV performance. I'm gonna give it another listen.

[Stan]

It's a very good question, may be worth a separate thread/discussion.

For me, SJ is probably their best album from the perspective of melding the directness and emotion of the live experience with their creative flourishes in the studio. In terms of arrangements and composition, it sounds like a collage of individual instruments, effects and voices which somehow come together to capture the sense of a live band.

The separate elements often sound paper thin, especially the chugging guitars and keys, but that gives so much room to layer these delicately and create a satisfying whole. CHz takes a similar approach but it sounds much more bloated to me because there's a lot of redundancy and the bass smothers the junkyard arrangements.

I think there are some fantastic SJ-era performances, Tavastia is probably the highlight of the era for me, but because the album was recorded when the songs were still so fresh, there's not too much difference. The live versions are essentially the album versions, minus studio additions and flourishes. I know that some people dislike the drum sounds on the record compared to the live shows and I can understand that.

I could do this for every record but yeah, separate thread.

[coral lord]

I've talked about it before (probably on a previous page in this thread) but my main problem with the versions after Music Box is the way the song has transformed from being sub 15 minutes to over 20 with not much to show for it. The middle section was so cathartic and the unwinding of the song after felt earned, but lately it feels like it drags. Having 10 minutes of build up, 2 minutes of the breakdown, and another 10 to wrap it up just doesn't feel earned. Seeing as the song is going to be 20+ minutes on the album it's hard for me to imagine it delivering as it did the first 100 times I listened to the original.

[headroom)))]

Stan wrote:

because the album was recorded when the songs were still so fresh, there's not too much difference. The live versions are essentially the album versions, minus studio additions and flourishes.

So I'll take from that response that you enjoy live SJ in equal amount recorded album SJ.
The reason I bring it up is because I think the first case of demoitis I had as a fan was from listening to Fireworks a thousand times from the 2006-03-19 Variety Playhouse, Atlanta boot and being obsessed with it. Then when the album came out I felt disappointed that Deakin's intro guitar part was gone. I also felt that the song was WAY more tame on album. I think that as soon as you start getting into the live AC sound, the albums sometimes feel like pale comparisons. I still love the recorded album songs but have to kinda teach myself that Live AC and Album AC are two different beasts. I feel that one is a punk band and the other is a psych band. One benefits from high energy and intensity, and the other benefits on sonic detail, tonality and studio trickery.

In other words, guess i'm tryna say, whatever Defeat ends up like on record isn't going to be the only version I'll listen to. I pretty much never listen to the recorded version of Passer-By, but am still super happy that they wrote it and I have recordings I can put on to get that feeling.

[Stan]

Yeah, I totally feel that they're two different forms and the live form is almost always better. SJ is an anomaly in that respect and I'd also say that album Feels is in that category. I know some people prefer the slightly darker, more aggressive live renditions (and I love them) but I think they absolutely elevated those songs in the studio with Eyvind and Kria overdubs, plus the harnonies. Sung Tongs is a marvellous album, and both album and live are incredible and quite different. I'd almost say it's in line with Feels and SJ but I've listened to those boots more than anything except the pre-MPP stuff. Still incredibly exciting and inspirational to me.

Everything else, live is incomparably better for me, even the average albums are pretty great live.

[tay's tee games]

A lot that I agree with here in terms of there being two different bands performing two different tasks for two different purposes.

This may just be me but I also feel that it's massively to do with which you heard first. For example SJ and Feels are my favourite albums and I heard them long before I heard the boots, so those are the definitive versions for me. I appreciate and certainly enjoy the SJ/Feels boots (Cuckoo Cuckoo at Malta Festival anyone?) but they're rarely the versions I go back to. Whereas anything after MPP I heard a boot of/saw live first so they're the definitive versions in my mind.

On the flip side of that though I do love that a live version can become my favourite version of a song after I've already had a strong opinion on the album version for a while. I go back and listen to the PW shows on bandcamp pretty regularly but I very rarely go back to the album. This is probably sacrilege but I'm sometimes on the verge of feeling like the Live at 9:30 versions of loads of non-CHz shit (WWIW?S, I Think I Can, DYSTW) are the best...

[destiny]

Lol imagine a guy in 2003 like Wow why did they add that piano to two sails on a sound.

Tbh thats me with daffy duck

[unrecordednight]

saw them play penny dreadfuls at an automine show back in '96, when the spirit version dropped i knew these guys had lost the plot

[blindmowing]

maybe after the thousandth time of the AC boys advising us in an interview not to compare live versions to one another and god forbid the live version to the studio version will we accept they are different beasts.

(tone warning: i'm being facetious)

[Stories and Games]

this sort of discourse makes me think a lot about how different music sounds to songwriters vs non-songwriters. like, i sometimes do feel like it's a curse that i care so much as a listener about the particulars of melodies and lyrics and chord progressions and song structures. i can tell myself that having a lot of firsthand experience with the mechanics of all those things lets me enjoy others' music more deeply, but i have no way of actually knowing that, yknow? how much of that "knowledge" is actually unnecessary baggage and false perspective? maybe it lets me get higher-than-average enjoyment out of mbv defeat but causes me to get higher-than-average frustration out of 2021-onward defeat? idfk. in any case i do think there's an important distinction to be made between "there's generally less energy and raw excitement in the studio versions" and "there are quantifiable compositional tweaks that appear to have been made in the recording process that i feel make the song fundamentally weaker"

[Stories and Games]

have been having convos with people lately about whether recorded music is ultimately a blessing or a curse and i feel like the phenomenon of live-version-itis really hits right on all the philosophical pressure points of that question

[Stories and Games]

also sorry if complaining about the defeat changes is a buzzkill y'all. it's my way of engaging with the music, i care a lot about things being as great as they can be, but i can definitely tone it down if ppl generally feel this isn't the time or place for whinging about melody tweaks