[destiny]

Browsing this thread offended, with a pack of m&ms

[hedgecore]

FEEL ON1NE!!! wrote:

Browsing this thread offended, with a pack of m&ms

my partner and I just shared a Share Size package

Stories and Games wrote:

Yeah I realize that was an overly simplistic statement to make about early hip hop; the aesthetics of the music were adventurous and exciting and that's an extremely important part of the story. I just wanted to point out that the socioeconomic context was a huge part of it, and that that transcends the waveforms on the cd or what have you. If it wasn't, then people wouldn't have been skeptical of rappers who came from wealthier backgrounds. And I do think that it's really not clear cut where text ends and context begins in any case.

Sorry to keep coming back to this lawl but I've been trying to wrap my head around this statement in the context of your post and it's confusing me. Who was skeptical of which rappers from wealthy backgrounds? Skeptical why? Surely not because hip hop as a genre (especially early hip hop, also can we define a time period here), was talking solely about being poor, or ever implied that you must be poor to be an MC?

Following this logic, are you saying that people were skeptical of certain rappers (who talked about a variety of topics in their music) because they didn't live in a poor area?

[Cooper]

Everyone is acting all the time, everything is an accident, it’s not your fault, capital is a mass formation psychosis, forgive everything now and forever

[hedgecore]

ok

[Avey Tane]

Animal Collective has an angry white male problem

[kingo]

jerry wonder wrote:

I like the general inquiry that Stories and Games is onto. People seem to be pretty defensive here--I don't think we are attacking the boys, just exploring their music and social place in the world through the lens of class.

I am thinking about music and making music as a career not being something that comes easy, and obviously time and space to learn your instrument, explore writing, and to make it is incredibly helpful. I imagine the guys had a lot of encouragement and space to learn and get their feet with instruments and their creativity (which is so wonderful, and I wish everyone had that space). I would say that spaciousness is not available in a lot of working class and poorer folks' lives.

I can understand the original poster's friend having some resentment about them, especially if they come from a poorer class backround.

I wonder if--because their music is so unique and strange--it makes people defensive, like "well, look, at you getting to experiment and make beautiful things, you must have had lots of support to do that", when we all should get to do that kind of thing....

Personally don’t appreciate resentment politics. Ac makes good tunes, this entire thread is weird

[kingo]

Stan wrote:

In this dissertation, I will explore Dvorkin's anti-cult activism in Steven Spielberg's JAWS (1975).


Honestly, I loathe this lens poisoned entry level academia shit.

Intellectually, it fucking stinks. Fixate on one idea that makes you feel righteous and apply it to everything you can think of, dividing your existence into for/against like a fucking simpleton.

Thought Daft Punk had great kick drum sounds? Think on buddy they were paid for by a certain Mr DANIEL Bangalter who wrote D.I.S.C.O. and who came from France, one of the worst colonisers in European history.

stan, you rock. Disappointing that this thread is full of people having a discourse on muh class privilege like it’s 2015 and you’re a college freshman. Maybe this board is best equipped for discussions on live shows and panda bear’s never ending game remix

[tdegenaro]

as a professor of college english i gotta say this is not representative of the work freshman do, not in my classes anyway

[BORCHENKO??]

I for one think that animal collective has a lot of class

[tdegenaro]

BORCHENKO?? wrote:

I for one think that animal collective has a lot of class

this is the winning joke in the thread imo

[wilandhugs]

tdegenaro wrote:

as a professor of college english i gotta say this is not representative of the work freshman do, not in my classes anyway

Yeah it's way more like, junior/senior level academia. Overconfidence before graduate school kicks you in the gut.

[headroom)))]

Quality Joke Awards go to the following:

Dallou wrote:

If only my favorite band grew up poor

Cooper wrote:

I heard all 4 of them are landlords

Tropic wrote:

Four walls and adobe slats for my tenaaaants

Stan wrote:

Such a brilliant series of reflections there from Josh. It's so heartwarming to read and it's another example of how the band has inspired me in my own day to day life. Once you find your true vocation, it's like you feel full up inside forever. I can safely say that how he feels about making music is exactly how I feel about slave driving.

Cooper wrote:

Damn, I’m never listening to their parents’ music again

hypo's wrote:

wrote:

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/01/108/animal-collective-ties-to-prison-industry

[headroom)))]

On privilege, I read somewhere that all of them went to Waldorf schools. My gf was in the public teaching world for a minute and told me that those schools are really different than most elementary schools in that they encourage creativity and experimenting. My gf grew up pretty well off (which i sometimes secretly resent, but know that it wasn't her decision to be born rich) and told me her parents were thinking of sending her to one of those schools but chose not to because they don't push learning to read until way later.

Anyways, I kinda get why OP's friend might have a chip on their shoulder about AC's privilege growing up if OP's friend grew up poor. But I don't think that has anything to do with the music, its probably just a personal class dynamic thing. I grew up around a lot of lower level economic class (free lunch, gangs in middle school/high school, more violence than i'd like to see) but have a good job now and have a lot of wealthier friends. Its often times kind of weird hearing about how they grew up, and the things/experiences they had. The thing that bothers me the most is that they had teachers who actually tried to teach them, where as I and my classmates had teachers who basically did day care.

Anyways, sorry for the rant, I love AC's music, and their upbringing probably did shape them (as everyone's does) and I can't hate on AC for their wealth because they never made me feel poor. In fact, I commend them for dedicating their lives to really pursuing music and sounds in ways that have shaped my mind. Who knows, maybe there experimental private school led them to think in ways that pushed their creativity in music making, which all of us fans benefit from.

OP's friend probably needs to look inside as to why they get a negative association in regards to class with AC's music. People are products of their environments. You can't hate a child for growing up where they did and how they did. At least that's how I reason it in my relationship. A lot of this class warfare is the uber elite letting the "middle class" fight amongst themselves. There's real problems that can be solved, and we shouldn't waste our time separating ourselves.

Also, "the poor artist is the real artist" cliche is kinda corny.

[tdegenaro]

headroom))) wrote:

Also, "the poor artist is the real artist" cliche is kinda corny.

not only is it corny, it is demonstrably untrue and probably a mechinism of class warfare that, unlike animal collective, is worth interrogating.

great post man thanks for the insight. got a buddy with a similar situation to you (gf went to elite alternative private schools from pre-k thru college) so the anxiety you're talking about really makes sense for an individual to wrestle with.

[lhtd]

imo animal collective's aesthetic values, instrumentation choices, recording techniques, and touring probably give us greater insight into the class(es) from which their music is situated. that said, i have little to no desire for sociology or to deconstruct such things for their own sake and i would be suspicious of anyone who does so.

[Fovrodi]

I LIKE that AC went to private school

[hypo's]

if u rly think abt it poor artists are the provileged ones, rich white dudes dont have the opportunity to go from rags 2 riches like that its messed up

[headroom)))]

Here's some stories about music and class that come to mind.

I used to hang out at a punk house in southern California, and remember a girl who dressed super ratty. Wearing torn up rags, and dreadlocks and looked like she was homeless. She was a super cool and real person (like most punks I met) and told me that her dad was a doctor and she hated how she grew up. From that same house, I knew this kid who ran away from home and lived at the house at 16 and would go to shows and kick it with all of us. Fast forward 15 years later, and he's a wine maker in LA.

Who really knows where people go and what drives them?

A while back, I had an apartment manager who was Mexican and had this tattoo of Morrissey on his forearm. Really cool dude, down to earth and chill. He told me that when he was growing up in the 90s, he had a Morrissey poster on his wall and all his friends would make fun of him and call him gay. He was one of a very few people he knew that listened to rock music. One of his friends said "Why do you keep that poster of that man on the wall? Are you gay? Do you want to make out with him?" And then he would come back with: "Oh yeah! Why do you have that CD of 2pac? With no shirt, posing on a chair" :^D

The point I'm getting at (if there is one) is that its easy to perceive an artist's image very wrong, it's probably best to just think about the music.

[Hash]

2pac being hot as fuck seems like some kind of elephant in the room

[destiny]

headroom))) wrote:

Also, "the poor artist is the real artist" cliche is kinda corny.

For sure... and extremely fetishistic. And yeah... 2pac is too handsome

[headroom)))]

Hash wrote:

2pac being hot as fuck seems like some kind of elephant in the room

FEEL ON1NE!!! wrote:

And yeah... 2pac is too handsome

Seriously! Those abs and that voice! Definitely could've pulled off leading a boy band if he was born 10 years later.

[unrecordednight]

great posts headroom

FEEL ON1NE!!! wrote:

headroom))) wrote:

Also, "the poor artist is the real artist" cliche is kinda corny.

For sure... and extremely fetishistic

yeah that's one thing that rubs me the wrong way with that line of thinking as well. i just imagine a poor artist simply wanting to talk about the art itself and then a journalist being like "yeah yeah but what's it like being a *poor* artist tho, how does being underprivileged influence your music? what is your art trying to say about the experience of struggling financially?" like your art can't transcend that no matter what. people shouldn't be forced into a position where they have to be a representative for something even if it is part of their identity, and that's what that hyper-fixation leads to

[dio]

Fovrodi wrote:

I LIKE that AC went to private school

wait is that what this is all about?

Honestly, fuck them.

[Cooper]

It just seems so obvious that the harsh reality of existence etc. that lends itself to good art is not limited to financial struggle-, if you can’t overcome that in the consumption of art you have an unhealthy obsession with the idea of capital and you need to forgive humans for being selfish- like we are animals that evolved with a scarcity survival mindset- it is a tragedy but it’s a part of the greater tragedy of corporeality. we were all mostly born into a fundamental financial system that exacerbates the selfish instinct. Art is an attempt to transcend the whole of the tragedy and we should let everybody try that. /this might be an insane post, my bad I’ve actually never learned much about the theory behind all of this. It sucks that money is real but everyone is culturally and socially driven to earn a lot of it and we should forgive the people who bought into it. I’m not excusing the terrible sin of wage exploitation in general, it’s just a messy thing that you have to forgive to find any peace within a capitalist society. I’m just spitballing so please be nice to me if you need to tell me why I should fuck off

[taptherockies]

All I can say is that I don't think the stretch from Danse to Strawberry Jam came from comfortable people in any sense of the word. The rest is too complicated (and honestly irrelevant considering the end results) to assume and ultimately leads to an unfruitful discussion.

EDIT: This didn't stop me from posting a wall of text defending them lol

[hypo's]

Cooper wrote:

It just seems so obvious that the harsh reality of existence etc. that lends itself to good art is not limited to financial struggle-, if you can’t overcome that in the consumption of art you have an unhealthy obsession with the idea of capital and you need to forgive humans for being selfish- like we are animals that evolved with a scarcity survival mindset- it is a tragedy but it’s a part of the greater tragedy of corporeality. we were all mostly born into a fundamental financial system that exacerbates the selfish instinct. Art is an attempt to transcend the whole of the tragedy and we should let everybody try that. /this might be an insane post, my bad I’ve actually never learned much about the theory behind all of this. It sucks that money is real but everyone is culturally and socially driven to earn a lot of it and we should forgive the people who bought into it. I’m not excusing the terrible sin of wage exploitation in general, it’s just a messy thing that you have to forgive to find any peace within a capitalist society. I’m just spitballing so please be nice to me if you need to tell me why I should fuck off

no you're touching on some great points imo, but I do understand certain groups 'obsession' with the idea of capital


eh that's all I can muster I'm fuckin trashed, bbl

[Stan]

Coop, great post man.

[taptherockies]

I'm a broke gear nerd and that's part of why I've always enjoyed this band's ability to "make-do". If you have money, your instinct isn't to "make-do" for the sake of authenticity.

Let's ask some questions about their musical gear throughout their career.

Why did Geo use Minidiscs for so long?

Why were they using older synths (even at the time) on Spirit/Panda Bear?

What brand of guitars were used on Sung Tongs?

Why were SP-404s being sold for like $100 at pawn shops for years after MPP? They must've been cheaper before that album came out.

I haven't seen any opulent guitars being used by Deakin, Panda, or Avey ever.

There was a sea-change, though. If you remember the buzz around MPP, it was insane. Of course the brands they were using started to reach out for some sort of placement deal. The My Girls video was basically a Roland ad.

But wasn't half of that album about having to provide for your family? Seems like a weird coincidence if they haven't ever had to worry about money.

The cutting edge gear didn't arrive until ~CHz. (Korg M3)

Panda used that same synth on Tomboy. I'm assuming that was another placement deal since both Panda and the band used it and namedropped it in interviews. At this point, you could make an argument that they may have been semi-well-to-do. I don't think so, though.

What brand was Panda's guitar for that era (which was centered around guitar playing)?

I can't recognize the headstock, and it looked like a cheap Strat copy.

IMO, it wasn't until Down There and PBvsGR that they were in any real position to be particular about their gear. And they were "successful" at that point.

I could be completely wrong about all of this, I'm just brain dumping my perspective and how I've always kind of related to them.

If they ever were "wealthy" in the sense that they always had a handout, they would've used the good stuff during their come-up.

[hypo's]

fantastic post and perspective (from a non gear nerd), love this board

[foxtrot]

Cooper and taptherockies killin this thread

[awesome]

how about — how did they start their own record label in their early/mid 20s to get around the problem that (in their words) nobody wanted to sign them?

[hypo's]

awesome wrote:

how about — how did they start their own record label in their early/mid 20s to get around the problem that (in their words) nobody wanted to sign them?

buddy the point that is being made is that the answer to this question isn't a reason to detract from their art, I feel like a broken record player here

do you have something interesting to say about it or what's up

[Fovrodi]

awesome wrote:

how about — how did they start their own record label in their early/mid 20s to get around the problem that (in their words) nobody wanted to sign them?

Spoiler: show

Deakin: Hey man,

since I was the one that did a lot of this I guess I can try and answer your questions. I preface this with saying that I don't really know how much any of this matters and I really only worked on the label with the very first Panda Bear record and with our ANimal release of Spirit they're Gone which had the advantage of being strongly supported by Other Music and Time Out NY right off the bat. but this is how I did it.

You need to send what is called a "one sheet". this is a single page document. Some people I know fit all of the info on a small postcard size jam, but most people that I know use a regular 8 1/2 x 11 sheet. You want to have in some form:
1. a print of the cover art. I would usually put this in the upper left hand corner maybe about 2 1/2 inches square. below that put your catologue number in very small print. something like ANI001 (the 1st (001) release on ANimal (ANI))

2. YOu want to throw on the name of the band and the album title in large bold print. PRobably at the top really big "AVEY TARE AND PANDA BEAR" and then just below that in slightly smaller type but still bigger than the rest of your text "SPIRIT THEY'RE GONE, SPIRIT THEY'VE VANISHED".

3. Track listing. so i would have put it below the album title in considerably smller type (probably 10-12 point) and just go "1. Spirit they're GOne". next line "2. April and the Phantom" and so on.

-all of that should have fit into the top 1/4 or so of your page (At least how I did it and I think it is a good model). then i put a line all the way across the bottom of that info.

4. the next session is your text. Usually you don't want to overload people with info here but it is important to hit a few key things. I think two paragraphs is a good length. the first should be a description of the band…maybe the history. “Avey Tare and Panda Bear are two friends who began playing music together…” etc. It is good to throw in a bit of personality but you should focus on the fact that you are trying to give people something that they would probably use as a template in a print review or something. so…the first paragraph talk a bit about who you are are whatever. the story of why you are doing what you are doing. and then in the second paragraph you want to talk about the record. one of the most irritating and yet apparently necessary elements here is to draw comparisons with things people know. SO you might be like (and here I deviate from the spirit sheet because I forget): “Though [YOUR ALBUM] is clearly striving for something new it is not hard to hear the relationship with the whimsical song writing of The Kinks. blah blah…” anyway…you can be creative and personal, but you are trying to give someone some reference points. It sucks to compare your music to other things, I hate it. But it is necessary.

- here I would thow in another line across the page. below you probably have about 1/4 of a page left.

5. here you want to throw a few bullet points. literally come up with 2-5 points that make it notable. ex.: - [your band] is doing an extensive west coast tour this april. –[your album] was on the emplyee’s picks shelf at [your local record store] for 1 month. –[your band]’s myspace page has received 8million hits since the 1st of january. – currently distributed by carrot top distro. really anything that you can think of that will show someone your band has already or might make some sort of impact on the world at large. this can include anything related to playing live or print/internet press.

6. Then you want to put something at the bottom like this:
for all inquiries related to this album please contact:
Mike Heron
po box 11111 abingdon place
astral plane, Arizona
33333
usa
[email protected]
999.999.9999
http://www.myspace.com/ahwelljackson

7. If you have a label name/logo down here in this section. i would usually throw it over to the bottom right hand corner.

------------- whewwww….
so that pretty much lays it out. so I would make up a package with the album. the one sheet. if you have received any press already then put together a composite and throw that in there too (no more than 2 pages of press at the most and only stuff you feel is really choice). I was also a fan of trying to make the package visually grabbing in some way. We drew little pictures on the outside of each package. BUt you also don’t want to make the package annoying. for example spray paint invariably flakes all over the desk of someone that gets a package covered in spray paint. It is really important to understand for you own mental health that if you send out 100 of these there is a good chance that a large portion of them may in fact get thrown out before it is even opened. this is just the way it is. people that receive demos or submissions for reviews get hundreds of these things a week or more and could not possibly go through all of it. This shouldn’t discourage you, but you it should be something that you always remind yourself of. primarily because it helps you put together the most effective one sheet (focus on being as clear as possible, as provocative as possible and as minimal as possible) and secondly because when you don’t hear back from David Fricke you don’t want to take it personally.

So come up with a list of people or stations or publications you want to send to and then email all of them very nice and comfortable like. Clear and succinct. and say that you are so and so and you would like to submit your record to them and who is the best person to send to and what is their address. if you don’t hear back within a week then you can write one more time. if you are ignored twice then let it go. You can still send a package to someone that didn’t get back to you, but you should really be clear that you have the right info. if you do hear back then send according to their specifications. if you drop the package in the mail on a monday, maybe wait until the following monday and write another email politely asking if they received your package. Actually, don’t e-mail people on Monday. Monday is like a catch up day if you took the weekend off. write on like wednesday or something. If they respond, awesome, if not…let it go. maybe in another week you can try and touch in again. Generally you have to use your judgement. Realize that some people are really friendly, some are total dicks and almost all of them are way more concerned with getting their review of the Shins record together than they are of checking out something they have never heard of before. don’t take it personally just realize that if you push too hard you will probably irritate them more than get their attention in a positive way. From there on out it is really out of your hands.

I hope that most of that is helpful and not too discouraging. I actually really want to encourage you. I think it is a very valuable thing to go through the process of dealing with the industry on this level. It teaches you a lot of what is actually going on and what it means to promote yourself. Understanding the relationship between Touring, Press and Distribution is kind of key. But go for it. Pay attention and learn.

if any of that is unclear or you have more questions, write back. i don’t mind.

Be well,
joshmin

[BORCHENKO??]

Very presumptuous of Deakin to think I could afford paper

[awesome]

hypo's wrote:

buddy the point that is being made is that the answer to this question isn't a reason to detract from their art, I feel like a broken record player here

i never said it detracted from their music, in fact if i can be a broken record i said earlier:

wrote:

i don't really care because i like their music and "death of the author" and i think everyone should have that support and whatnot

i'm just considering the op's friend's reaction because i can, you know, be an adult and i don't feel defensive about some random person having this response to a band i like. and i can try to put myself in their place and think why they might feel that way and be resentful about these "quirked up qhite boys from maryland" having the means/ability to make their music. it's weird, op never said her friend thought that every working musician should be a poor striver, but that's how almost everyone in this thread histrionically reacted to it. and the friend's reinterpretation/reconsideration of "college" after learning of the (likely) means of their families (being able to afford private school 2-3x as expensive as the college i went to) is a perfectly fair reaction imo. again, i'm not saying i feel this way, because i love most of their music (and hey, i also love the strokes and they're on a whole different level), but i can see how someone else might get a little turned off by it — people are turned off by all sorts of things extraneous to the actual art across any medium.

[hypo's]

awesome wrote:

[i'm just considering the op's friend's reaction because i can, you know, be an adult

clearly lol

I asked if you had anything interesting to say, and I got my answer

take care

[unrecordednight]

awesome wrote:

it's weird, op never said her friend thought that every working musician should be a poor striver, but that's how almost everyone in this thread histrionically reacted to it.

i agree we all are probably projecting a lot of caricature-ish opinions onto this person, but that's the nature of the thread given that that person isn't even here and everyone is just spitballing and giving their perspective, and i don't think it's a weird reaction to think if a person is like wealth/class makes artists inauthentic and hard to connect to, then inversely that person would assert the opposite would be authentic and relatable and therefore desirable. i don't even necessarily agree with that jump in logic just that it isn't a huge leap to make

for what it's worth i agree with you that the "college" thing is a fair reaction to have, like "damn easy for you to say you don't have to go to college, i feel like i have to" but of course all of us AC obsessives know that that lyric was less about the sentiment and more of just a non-beach boys-y lyric juxtaposed with the "our prayer" beach boys aesthetic of the vocals

[hedgecore]

awesome wrote:

how about — how did they start their own record label in their early/mid 20s to get around the problem that (in their words) nobody wanted to sign them?

Making your own DIY record labels have been a viable alternative for small bands that had no chance of attracting major labels for a while. So... they pooled their money and paid a pressing plant to press their vinyl... go print out jackets somewhere in a thrifty way (knowing someone who has access to cheap/free printing in a college or their job or whatever). Glue the shit together, stuff the records in and mail them out via media mail via USPS? edit: for larger distribution/not only mail order, knowing someone who knows how it works would help, didn't a couple of them work at a record store for a while? I'm sure they had plenty of brains to pick in terms of how to achieve wider distribution from being in the music scene but also a coworker/owner who knows how it works

(this is just an example I don't know what they did. but plenty of poor idiots do it. see: my friends)

[hypo's]

NO it's privilege writ large and although I agree with the prevailing sentiment that this is unimportant wrt to their art, I think u guys r being uh, 'histrionic'

[Dallou]

Got ugly gg op