[destiny]

recently, i had a conversation with my friend about her feeling less connected to the band when she found out their own apparent wealth. being a bunch of upper middle class quirked up qhite boys from maryland, my friend still felt strongly on it and we had a good conversation on it, with myself holding the viewpoint that class shouldnt be a baring on the music itself rather than your understanding of the artist, but her understanding of the artist was altered a bit. class and the idea of "authenticity" in music like this i feel is a hackneyed conversation since it's kind of a nuanced topic that can be fumbled around in communication, kind've lamenting or being introspective about the gruesome social forces that determine us and our world. in particular, she brought up how the song "college" could feel dishonest coming from their background, but i was a pedant girl since im pretty sure that song is supposed to be a pastiche type gag track on the beach boys LOL.

i feel as though AC never lied about their image in same vein that a lot of people feel "lied to" about an artist's they enjoy's social standing. in certain cases i understand, where it could feel like a social cause or poltiical message that an inauthentic artist uses is rendered a prop or gimmick when you learn their father was one of the cia agents that masterminded moonlight climax... hehe. but ac never werent a bunch of quirked up upper middle class white boys a bit alienated that made nice music. their privileges allowed them amazing musical foundation that a lot of people are deprived, but i don't think thats a malicious thing... what they make from it is something individual from background or experience, which i think can be hard to do obviously when so many indie artists present themselves as the "meek".

i hate the idea of something external to the music takes away from the music... that shit should NOT matter ideally. does this sound like it comes from a place of privilege? i am simply a middle class whtie girl from new jersey... BEING PRICED OUT OF HUDSON COUNTY!!!! (hehe)

although it certainly can effect the music for me, as i feel that way about ariel pink even tho i never really liked him, and other artists.

sorry if this is messy, but i've thought a lot about it and jsut wanted to write it down... and it can kinda be a shitty topic so if it gets ugly feel free to lockerooni it or just dont respond... but i just wanted to jot it down

how do you feel it effects/doesnt effect it? how do you process this...

[BORCHENKO??]

I mean. It is weird. But people relate to things differently and under different circumstances. I will say though that I think AC are pretty honest about who they are, both in interviews and in their music. That's the impression I've always gotten from them, and its something that I respect, regardless of socio-economic background.


Also the music is just good so tell your friend to eat dirt

[Hash]

AC's current wealth isn't "upper middle class" wealth, it's entertainer class wealth. John Lennon was from a "working class" background, does that mean he was working class his whole life?

This kind of thinking doesn't really work when you're talking about mass media. As soon as a song has reached you on the radio or from a big professional website, it's from someone in a different class from you. And I'd say it's a deceptive line of thinking to be like "well they came from the same background as I did so we have the same material interests"

[destiny]

Hash wrote:

AC's current wealth isn't "upper middle class" wealth, it's entertainer class wealth. John Lennon was from a "working class" background, does that mean he was working class his whole life?

This kind of thinking doesn't really work when you're talking about mass media. As soon as a song has reached you on the radio or from a big professional website, it's from someone in a different class from you.

I was more bringing that up as where they came from initially, but i phrased it poorly. Aside from that you are completely right. It's another thing I felt hokey about the whole thing.

[hypo's]

shut up that dude's friend

[Hash]

Fuck the word "authentic" outside of very specific contexts like "this is an authentic Van Gogh painting"

[foxtrot]

I can see how this discussion would come up in certain musical contexts. For example, when a hip-hop artist raps about their disadvantaged upbringing that didn't actually happen or something. Or when artists blatantly appropriate stuff from groups less privileged than they are. I dunno, I have always seen AC as really genuine and open. There is no pretence or subterfuge about them.

[hypo's]

yeah, sorry, but to be very honest this friend's position is objectively stupid and I'm not sure how you managed to listen to them attempt to defend it, you are stronger than I

fuckin, kids these days (I'm assuming/hoping that they're 14)

[dio]

Have never thought about class in re to AC but have sort of always assumed they had kinda average "middle class" backgrounds that weren't that different than mine, and I've thought that without a ton of actual knowledge re that stuff or having had looked into it.

Vampire Weekend is a band that seems to ask me to think about class a lil in a way AC certainly never have.

[wilandhugs]

Yeah that's a lame as hell argument. If you let someone's wealth affect how you enjoy their music, you need to re evaluate your perspective on wealth or music.

Now, how someone's wealth affects how popular or crazy expensive an artist's music is... well then that's obviously a different story. Even then, so it goes. That's how it's always been, and still currently is. I can dislike Olivia Rodrigo or whatever as much as I want and she will still exist.

[destiny]

hypo's wrote:

yeah, sorry, but to be very honest this friend's position is objectively stupid and I'm not sure how you managed to listen to them attempt to defend it, you are stronger than I

fuckin, kids these days (I'm assuming/hoping that they're 14)

Simmer!!!

[hypo's]

FEEL ON1NE!!! wrote:

hypo's wrote:

yeah, sorry, but to be very honest this friend's position is objectively stupid and I'm not sure how you managed to listen to them attempt to defend it, you are stronger than I

fuckin, kids these days (I'm assuming/hoping that they're 14)

Simmer!!!

sorry, I do applaud you for being so patient and open to their ideas

[jerry wonder]

I think College is a commentary on being upper middle/middle class--everyone in these classes is force fed that they need to go to college, and yes it is a little myopic, as college opens doors for people who are working or middle class, in ways that upper middle class people don't necessarily need (their wealth being institutionalized and passed down).

Boys Latin I think is about going to an upper middle class private school and being a robo-child caught in that system--dont complain, get good grades, work so hard that you are horribly depressed, repeat. Yes there is privilege in going to a school like that; i bet panda knows that but wanted to address this particular part of the experience of his class location.

I have been wondering lately about how much the AC guys likely make making music--I wonder if they have day jobs...maybe they have family wealth and investments that keep them afloat. Who knows!

[Stan]

Never gave this any thought in my life until now. Do I feel different now I know they're posh c****? Their message seems entirely sincere to me and they've never brought class into it, nor attempted to misrepresent themselves that I can tell. One thing I love about them and why I never considered their upbringing or whatever is that they do seem very unashamedly 'themselves' and very open about their perceptions and feelings.

The only song I know is bullshit is On A Highway because they always travel in Geo's dad's private jet.

[tay's tee games]

dio wrote:

Have never thought about class in re to AC but have sort of always assumed they had kinda average "middle class" backgrounds that weren't that different than mine, and I've thought that without a ton of actual knowledge re that stuff or having had looked into it.

This. Does anybody actually know anything about their backgrounds? I know Josh's mum is some kind of spiritual healer, but also know that he mainly works as a carpenter outside of the band to stay afloat. It's also been quite openly discussed that Dave and Noah had some heavy money struggles in the early 2000's living in New York. Presumably if they came from such a privileged background they wouldn't have struggled that much and wouldn't have had to work at Other Music?

foxtrot wrote:

I can see how this discussion would come up in certain musical contexts. For example, when a hip-hop artist raps about their disadvantaged upbringing that didn't actually happen or something. Or when artists blatantly appropriate stuff from groups less privileged than they are. I dunno, I have always seen AC as really genuine and open. There is no pretence or subterfuge about them.

Also this.

wilandhugs wrote:

Yeah that's a lame as hell argument. If you let someone's wealth affect how you enjoy their music, you need to re evaluate your perspective on wealth or music.

Now, how someone's wealth affects how popular or crazy expensive an artist's music is... well then that's obviously a different story. Even then, so it goes. That's how it's always been, and still currently is. I can dislike Olivia Rodrigo or whatever as much as I want and she will still exist.

But mainly this.

[hedgecore]

I hope they don't listen to Kid Rock then....

[Hash]

This may be reading way far into it but there was that one interview with Kristin Anna that made me think at least one of Dave's parents was a famous entertainer. I dunno if that means wealth necessarily though.

[Dallou]

If only my favorite band grew up poor

[Dallou]

dio wrote:

Have never thought about class in re to AC but have sort of always assumed they had kinda average "middle class" backgrounds that weren't that different than mine, and I've thought that without a ton of actual knowledge re that stuff or having had looked into it.

Vampire Weekend is a band that seems to ask me to think about class a lil in a way AC certainly never have.

Same as AC, Vampire Weekend were very transparent about their upbringing, I mean watch "A punk" video lol, those polos are something else.
As long as now one pretends that they are something they are not, fake past struggle and all I have not problems with it.

[tdegenaro]

hedgecore wrote:

I hope they don't listen to Kid Rock then....

MY NAAAAME IS KIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIID

[tdegenaro]

i'm not knocking your friend or anybody here buuuuuuuuut i just finished grad school in the humanities and i'm so fatigued by everything being about capitalism or class like holy shit everything's a nail if you're selling hammers.

i guess i am knocking your friend - i think that's a lazy critique, like don't listen to the band if you don't want to, but don't use the band to posture about class or whatever. Unless someone puts something under my nose in this thread and i eat crow i don't even think the dudes in animal collective are that wealthy, not that i care or not that it matters.

also: college is such an obvious glib little joke of a track c'mon man.

[Cooper]

It’s odd that people need their fav artists to have a material hero’s journey before they find success. What if their art isn’t about class? Then it wouldn’t matter either way right? Or is there like an actual prejudice against people born into wealth going on here? That makes sense as a kind of cheeky political attitude but irl it’s just literally dumb and evil to have prejudice against the data of someone’s life that was set in stone before they didn’t ask to be born …

When it comes to industry plants, that’s the only time it’s really annoying when someone starts rich, because the Illuminati lizards could’ve at least plucked a good artist out of obscurity (and then use the tragedy of class to their marketing advantage lol)

[Dallou]

Now if they were owning a zoo, I would be mad

[Stan]

I heard Deakin's Big Game Huntin Tours supply all the rare meats to Geo's BBQ place.

Ain't nuthin like a roast vaquita slathered in chipotle marinade when I'm listening to my favourite band Animal Collective.

[Cooper]

I heard all 4 of them are landlords

[wilandhugs]

Cooper wrote:

It’s odd that people need their fav artists to have a material hero’s journey before they find success. What if their art isn’t about class? Then it wouldn’t matter either way right? Or is there like an actual prejudice against people born into wealth going on here? That makes sense as a kind of cheeky political attitude but irl it’s just literally dumb and evil to have prejudice against the data of someone’s life that was set in stone before they didn’t ask to be born …

When it comes to industry plants, that’s the only time it’s really annoying when someone starts rich, because the Illuminati lizards could’ve at least plucked a good artist out of obscurity (and then use the tragedy of class to their marketing advantage lol)

Yeah my brother is a sociology major and we talk all the time and we've reached the conclusion that it's so like, frustrating how people latch on to class like it's some kind of infallible sledge argument to be tossed into every discipline. It seriously might be the lowest hanging fruit of any critique. I think everyone sort of feels that way in their youth if they're invested in sociology, when that first "curtain" falls and you see capitalism for what it is it can definitely be overwhelming, but if you don't break that mindset you're literally going to drive yourself insane. The world is a complex place. Kids need to stop relying on the internet as a means of being overconfident in their own understanding of the world. That's all else I have to say about this.

[dio]

Geo owns 2 BBQ restaurants, don't forget. basically a landlord

[hypo's]

Cooper wrote:

I heard all 4 of them are landlords

I lol'd

[hypo's]

wilandhugs wrote:

Cooper wrote:

It’s odd that people need their fav artists to have a material hero’s journey before they find success. What if their art isn’t about class? Then it wouldn’t matter either way right? Or is there like an actual prejudice against people born into wealth going on here? That makes sense as a kind of cheeky political attitude but irl it’s just literally dumb and evil to have prejudice against the data of someone’s life that was set in stone before they didn’t ask to be born …

When it comes to industry plants, that’s the only time it’s really annoying when someone starts rich, because the Illuminati lizards could’ve at least plucked a good artist out of obscurity (and then use the tragedy of class to their marketing advantage lol)

Yeah my brother is a sociology major and we talk all the time and we've reached the conclusion that it's so like, frustrating how people latch on to class like it's some kind of infallible sledge argument to be tossed into every discipline. It seriously might be the lowest hanging fruit of any critique. I think everyone sort of feels that way in their youth if they're invested in sociology, when that first "curtain" falls and you see capitalism for what it is it can definitely be overwhelming, but if you don't break that mindset you're literally going to drive yourself insane. The world is a complex place. Kids need to stop relying on the internet as a means of being overconfident in their own understanding of the world. That's all else I have to say about this.

good posts

[Tropic]

Four walls and adobe slats for my tenaaaants

[tdegenaro]

Cooper wrote:

I heard all 4 of them are landlords

if parody, hilarious.

[tdegenaro]

Tropic wrote:

Four walls and adobe slats for my tenaaaants

definitely parody. extremely hilarious.

Thank you all for the articulate and level-headed posts. i swear on reddit in some fan communities people openly root for their fav artists to fail so they don't have to wrestle with their convoluted "values" regarding wealth. its goofy, goofy, corny shit.

[Fovrodi]

Deakin: Wow, I feel like dave and brian pretty much summed it up but I feel I gotta just throw in my words too because dammit if I don't feel passionate about it. I think that there are people in the world that choose professions based on money. I think that is true in almost every line of work. But i also know that in almost every activity that makes money, there are those who do what they do because they have no other choice. I am talking about scientists, artists, teachers... These people, and I consider myself one of these lucky souls, have found that there are certain things that they do because it feels great. Because it feels great to be adding that little part of yourself to the world. Becuase it feels good to discover things that you didn't know existed. Because you can't imagine life without that thing. To me the music that we make together and that I make on my own is part of that journey of living. and it really is on equal footing to having a family or playing sports or travelling or reading or having a satisfying job. I love what I do dearly and the moment that I stop truly loving it, truly needing it, is the moment that I stop doing it. If money was the issue, I would have quit a long time ago. My guess is that your friend has nothing in their life that gives them that kind of satisfaction and cannot imagine that anyone else would. But if you look around, if you read, you will find that there are actually many life passionate people from every walk of life. People that chose their passion, not their paycheck... that chose a positive life view not the idea that their own worth and satisfaction comes from the their material gain. No need to get in an argument with your friend because I imagine it would be a waste of time. instead just say a little prayer for the dude that he may someday feel a sense of satisfaction that goes beyond the material gains of life.
I think too that Dave raised a very important point about the way that our culture views the life of artists. Culture could not exist without the energy provided by artists. The same that it could not exist without scientists, philosophers, historians, bureaucrats. We need story tellers and clowns and painters and musicians. I think that there is some truth in the idea that money has fucked with the integrity of art and therefore with art's place in society. But it doesn't take away from it's ultimate importance.

[tdegenaro]

holy shit deak

[destiny]

Dallou wrote:

If only my favorite band grew up poor

LOL, I love this so much. I agree with Stan for sure, they a bunch of genuine dudes with something to say. And geo definitely has a private jet. Panda shouldve driven his lambo in the playing the long game music video

[Stan]

Such a brilliant series of reflections there from Josh. It's so heartwarming to read and it's another example of how the band has inspired me in my own day to day life. Once you find your true vocation, it's like you feel full up inside forever. I can safely say that how he feels about making music is exactly how I feel about slave driving.

[foxtrot]

So it looks like Deaks is more of a Functionalist than a Marxist


Seriously though, great words

[Stories and Games]

It's totally understandable for that sort of thing to bother somebody imo. Someone's perception of an artist's work is inherently filtered through layers upon layers of surrounding context whether they consciously realize it or not, and class can totally be one of those layers. It really rubs me the wrong way that so many people here are like "well that's stupid and irrelevant, just enjoy the music man," because no one actually just enjoys the music, man.

Example: what fundamentally made early hip hop exciting to people was that it was the artistic howl of the most underprivileged parts of the country. The music was just as much about what it represented as what it was aesthetically; you could reasonably argue that the distinction between those facets is impossible to accurately judge. That sort of cultural context can totally transcend how good you think a given record is in a vacuum—what score you'd give it out of ten or what have you—and that's entirely fine. It isn't obscuring some otherwise platonically pure evaluation of the music, because such a thing does not actually exist.

If socioeconomic factors don't figure into your feelings about a given record that's fine, but understand that a million other things are. The artist's previous work, the work of their peers, the work of their predecessors (or successors), the stories (or mythologies) behind it, the underlying creative ethos, not to mention the personal life experiences from which the music is entirely inextricable for each of us. We routinely bring these things up when discussing our love for Animal Collective's music and, importantly, none of them are about the hard and fast content of the music itself. Who are we to tut tut someone for bringing class into it? Why is that the point where we arbitrarily deem the assessment tainted?

[wilandhugs]

Stories and Games wrote:

It's totally understandable for that sort of thing to bother somebody imo. Someone's perception of an artist's work is inherently filtered through layers upon layers of surrounding context whether they consciously realize it or not, and class can totally be one of those layers. It really rubs me the wrong way that so many people here are like "well that's stupid and irrelevant, just enjoy the music man," because no one actually just enjoys the music, man.

Example: what fundamentally made early hip hop exciting to people was that it was the artistic howl of the most underprivileged parts of the country. The music was just as much about what it represented as what it was aesthetically; you could reasonably argue that the distinction between those facets is impossible to accurately judge. That sort of cultural context can totally transcend how good you think a given record is in a vacuum—what score you'd give it out of ten or what have you—and that's entirely fine. It isn't obscuring some otherwise platonically pure evaluation of the music, because such a thing does not actually exist.

If socioeconomic factors don't figure into your feelings about a given record that's fine, but understand that a million other things are. The artist's previous work, the work of their peers, the work of their predecessors (or successors), the stories (or mythologies) behind it, the underlying creative ethos, not to mention the personal life experiences from which the music is entirely inextricable for each of us. We routinely bring these things up when discussing our love for Animal Collective's music and, importantly, none of them are about the hard and fast content of the music itself. Who are we to tut tut someone for bringing class into it? Why is that the point where we arbitrarily deem the assessment tainted?

What you're saying is right in some aspects, I just think a lot of us are fed up with hearing it because, at least speaking for myself, I've been there before and was able to understand why, and it felt like it was out of a place of naivety and overconfidence in my worldview. Not saying that everyone is capable of that or that's always why, but it certainly makes art easier to enjoy and it makes your mind a lot more open to things if you stop trying to let things let constructs determine how you enjoy non-constructs. The human mind is not meant to be so subconsciously self selecting, and trying not to be contradictory is literally impossible.

Again, not denying the perspective. It's just an argument I'd try to avoid and instead try to provide a more open minded approach to.

Also, what made hip hop exciting to people and how that's related to class is apples to oranges for animal collective. Even then, there is way more to Hip Hop that was exciting-- rhythmic spoken word was never really done like that, I mean the genre was practically a sound revolution. There has never been a struggle for white people in that way in the modern era, and AC has never implied a class struggle about themselves-- knowing that college is not in earnestness, at least. And even then, being broke is still legit, and not everything is a competition.

[tdegenaro]

Stories and Games wrote:

Example: what fundamentally made early hip hop exciting to people was that it was the artistic howl of the most underprivileged parts of the country. The music was just as much about what it represented as what it was aesthetically; you could reasonably argue that the distinction between those facets is impossible to accurately judge. That sort of cultural context can totally transcend how good you think a given record is in a vacuum—what score you'd give it out of ten or what have you—and that's entirely fine. It isn't obscuring some otherwise platonically pure evaluation of the music, because such a thing does not actually exist.

well right but those factors were baked into the dna of early hip-hop whereas they are not baked into the dna of Animal Collective's music, or their ethos as musicians. i agree with you that cultural context is important and can have a huge impact on how one interacts with the music, but in the case of animal collective, class issues - at least class issues relating to geo, avey, deak, and panda - just isn't part of the work.

now, if you wanted to talk about the relationship between class and the environment - which is a huge part of the dna of their output - that'd be, to me, a relevant conversation. but its a nothingburger (again, imo) to apply a socio-economic critique of josh, brian, noah, and dave when that's not what their music is about. because of this, i'm inclined to dismiss it (as i did earlier) as a kid shouting eat the rich instead of making some meaningful observation about art, or the world, or whatever.