[dio]

evan6032 wrote:

What is bearhugs eventual name? I wasn’t into the boot scene back then I wasn’t quite obsessed yet

Summertime Sadness

[Tropic]

Guys eyes original title was 'choking the chicken - i'm jerkin off!'

[lhtd]

bearhug is such a better title! damn shoulda kept it

[Hellomark]

This might come off kinda weird but idk if people who weren't there at the time can fully understand how special and magical the 07/08 MPP stuff was.

[destiny]

Yeah, i think that has some merit. When i first listened to the boots when i was baby it was post release, and it sounded more like sampler beep boops and moaning. As i listened more, i understood. I think it was daily routine at Lux fragil that made me get the boots. The sound must've been amazing at those shows

[Cooper]

It’s like the whole album was written with the goal of being fun to perform live. It’s all so cathartic

[hypo's]

yep, such good times, I miss them so

[jfw7]

Tropic wrote:

Guys eyes original title was 'choking the chicken - i'm jerkin off!'

[zak]

Gimme some demoitis for MPP- what specific boots/songs/moments were people upset about when they didn’t make the cut in the studio album?

[hypo's]

blrp misread the question blrp

[unrecordednight]

zak wrote:

Gimme some demoitis for MPP- what specific boots/songs/moments were people upset about when they didn’t make the cut in the studio album?

not exactly mpp but grace: you went where? and did what? vocals during the pan flute build up missing from studio

[BoomCheese]

Honestly I don't really get the demoitis takes on MPP apart from maybe the different Taste and the incredible energy and screams in Brother Sport. And even then, the studio Taste is obv great on its own terms and the studio BS retains most of its energy and the tension release after the screaming bit remains super satisfying / goosebump-inducing. I wasn't there though (first got into AC in 2011) and demoitis really is a one-way street for the most part.

I find the psychology of demoitis so interesting. I'd love to do some research on it one day. There's definitely a different set of criteria used to evaluate both the objective and aesthetic quality of a live performance. And there are certain musical qualities that inevitably sound different in a bootleg recording and/or live experience (at least in AC boots), such as increased bass and vocal energy.

[Fovrodi]

As much as studio Taste feels like a different song I think it's an improvement and to (poorly) quote Tap "we get to have two versions of it". That bass blew me away and it's still one of my favorite AC joints.

Wasn't expecting the piano getting replaced on My Girls, don't mind the muted yells on Brothersport was actually expecting something like that after what they did with Avey's "uh-uh-uh-uh"s in FWX.

Drums in Daily Routine and that outro would make Thom Yorke cry

[Fovrodi]

I saw them in 2007, I was a teetotaler of the boots, closest I got to caving I started listening to a Bearhug boot and I turned it off when the loop kicked in bc I knew it was so good. Show might've stuck with me more if I listened to boots but no regrets

[Stan]

A good chunk of MPP is way better on the album, stuff like Also Frightened and No More Runnin sound incredible. Guys Eyes was pretty much a live monster but sometimes felt a bit loose and I think they nailed it on the record. Maybe the best live versions beat the album but it's pretty close. I think both versions of Dancer are equal, and hearing the explosion for the first time on the record was one of those moments I'll never forget. This place was in meltdown. Now I prefer the more subdued euphoria of, say, Melkweg, it hits deeper just with the fluttering synth and the crickets and a prodding kick.

Main ones where I really prefer the boots are House because the spaciousness of the piano and the more soulful, strong vocal melodies vs the thick synth and reverb harmonies. Obviously the song connected massively with people regardless but those early versions completely ruled my life, and AC went from being a band I really liked to this is my favourite band and if you say they're shit I'm calling off the engagement.

Daily Routine turned out great in the studio, I love it, another memory that I will never forget, a real peak experience listening to it in the snow at night walking home from work in China, grabbing bao buns, beer, neon lights, tears streaming, so happy. I think the live version is again more soulful though, feels more like a ballad, mysterious, the song is more about those chiming pads, the arpeggio and the lead vocal, all of which gets a little disguised by the electronics and production on the record. Bearhug is just a rawer, more than emotional version of a song that also turned out fucking great. My wife's favourite AC song.

Taste, I think they took something perfect and went for something quite different and that's what it is. It's a classic AC studio botch job when they're trying to refresh it for themselves, rather than recording the best version of the song as it was written. I don't mean that disrespectfully, it's their song! It's an established ancestor of Saturdays, Jabba, Midnight Special and many more classic favourites to come such as Defeat. The Biggest loss for me is Dave's verse vocal, it's less defined in the mushy studio version and slowed down so it loses any impetus. BroSport turned out pretty decent for a song that I wouldn't have a clue how to record it but live it's such a behemoth of twinkling, chirping synth lines and tracky techno percussion. All that stuff is in the studio version pretty much but it's lost and doesn't bring its own character like it does live, setting the scene and creating an incredibly special atmosphere and energy way before the vocals come in. They snipped all that but again, maybe it makes sense, especially for the entry level apes who only got on board with MPP like myself.

[captainlunatic]

when merriweather came out there was this live download from some service or other - probably itunes? - of two soundboard quality 2007 tracks. both were from 9/18/2007 in l.a. the bearhug from this release is my personal definitive bearhug. the brother sport is really really good too and captures the energy of those early versions just fine, but there are others that are better (like the grrrrrnd zero performance). i'm listening to this bearhug again and god, that "looking foooooorr... a beeeaaarrhuuuuug.... *SCREAMS*" still gives me chills!!

[Stan]

They're just so good, especially BH. Forgot about those recordings, makes it me dream of the day they finally put out some of the MPP soundboards.

[denjanenna]

also frightened was improved in so many ways in the studio, but the addition of that kick/bassline throughout (the song sounds like it’s already in 3 or 6, but you have triplet subdivisions within that too yeah? anyways) gives it such a stuttered feel. my girls and house are basically two different songs with all the timbral changes, so I can’t really complain there since I love the vibe of each. coming in cold to brosport is still awkward to me, especially since the DC NPR & melkweg shows had built it up sooo well, but I respect the decision.

[jetski]

jfw7 wrote:

Tropic wrote:

Guys eyes original title was 'choking the chicken - i'm jerkin off!'

[destiny]

Oh one thing, it's in the studio but it's so muted, Panda's "ohs" in Flower is one of the most pwoerful moments of the song for me, and they are so loud on the early versions. Since i got into AC post MPP I never understood "the Dancer", since I was so accustomed to in the Flowers I was waiting for a hard to replicate studio climax, i didn't realize I learned it backwords, and that flowers used to be the flurry of cicadas and bright synths rather then the explosion of the studio. Flowers is just an amazing AC song

[roopn]

I've been watching the pitchfork 2021 video heaps, flowers continues to be an amazing song

[unrecordednight]

BoomCheese wrote:

I find the psychology of demoitis so interesting. I'd love to do some research on it one day

yeah i find it interesting as well. i think the cause of demoitis is the intersection of a lot of different factors:

holding the idea of the forthcoming studio version as the de facto version of the song, as if somehow the live version isn't a legitimate "complete" version in its own right. there is a disconnect where you are listening to a hq live version and thinking 'this is gonna be so sick in the studio' as if it's going to be some totally different thing, and yet in a sense you already have it in your hands

there is a paradox where you are looking forward to the studio version being something exciting and different and new, and yet usually anything different and new about the studio version strikes you as uncanny because your brain already has an idea of what the song is supposed to be. anything different is usually perceived as a misstep that is desecrating the sanctity of the ideal song you put up on a pedestal in your head

so then the song youve already heard a million times comes out in the studio, and usually if it isnt radically different and is just a hq realization of the live version, you are like 'damn they nailed it!' but then the pleasure fades quickly because at the end of the day it's the same song that your brain is already super familiar with and the addition of it being extra pristine in the studio can only add so much to its shelf life. and if the song is radically different, you're like wow they ruined the song i've already fallen in love with and have been looking forward to forever. so it's a lose lose no matter what

the ironic thing is that youd think that the take away of this would be to not listen to the boots, but that comes back to the thing again of holding the studio up as the de facto version and relegating the live versions to simply being demos of what's to come. but listening to the boots is so much fun in its own right, whose to say which is the 'real' thing? what if the boots are the real de facto version, and then if you didn't listen to boots so that the album was totally fresh, maybe now you've actually missed out on the 'real' version? experiencing the whole album cycle from the excitement of the boots, to the ongoing hype and speculation, to the joy of the studio materializing, is all just so much fun i'll pick risking ruining the albums to enjoy the boots any day. it's one of those 'it's about the journey, not the destination' type things. demoitis = treating the studio as the destination

[unrecordednight]

follow up: there are a couple of interesting exceptions:

1. when the bootlegs are low quality, then there's some legitimacy to the idea that the studio will be the legitimate version. but the thing about low quality bootlegs is that it leaves the songs shrouded in a cloud of mystery, and when that cloud is lifted by the songs being in high quality, somehow it doesn't live up to expectations, because again at the end of the day it's still the same song, and the mystery of how the song is going to sound in good quality is part of the enjoyment of it, and now that's been taken away from the song now that it's been fully realized

2. occasionally there are times when they do manage to add stuff in the studio that really compliments what they did live, but i'd say those are exceptions that prove the rule

a big part of demoitis is about the energy. they arent feeding off of the energy of the crowd in the studio, they are often trying to streamline the songs and polish out the rough edges of the rawness of the live versions, but we love the raw energy of the live versions! so that element that we love is always going to be missing from the studio and we have to accept that ahead of time i think in order to enjoy the studio versions. mpp would def be a big example of this (will to joy, bearhug, etc) as many have said. greaper is a huge offender in this dept (jabba, popadam, nadir, principe real)

[JMC08]

Hellomark wrote:

This might come off kinda weird but idk if people who weren't there at the time can fully understand how special and magical the 07/08 MPP stuff was.

Truth - most euphoric I've felt with music pretty much

[JMC08]

FEEL ON1NE!!! wrote:

Oh one thing, it's in the studio but it's so muted, Panda's "ohs" in Flower is one of the most pwoerful moments of the song for me, and they are so loud on the early versions. Since i got into AC post MPP I never understood "the Dancer", since I was so accustomed to in the Flowers I was waiting for a hard to replicate studio climax, i didn't realize I learned it backwords, and that flowers used to be the flurry of cicadas and bright synths rather then the explosion of the studio. Flowers is just an amazing AC song

still get chills even thinking about the peak - mpp is a lifechanger

[BoomCheese]

Great thoughts unrecordednight. Your point about the dissonance between wanting a new and exciting studio version, but already having an idea of what the song should sound like, is spot on. Prominent music psychology theories (if people are interested, two good ones are Huron's ITPRA theory and Juslin's BRECVEMA framework) posit that much of the pleasure of music comes from being able to predict "events" in our environment, which is inherently satisfying to humans as it is key to our survival. But it is also satisfying when music challenges us by subtly deviating from these expectations. When you hear a boot, you rapidly generate very specific predictions about how it sounds - and usually you are emotionally committed to these predictions because you... like them. Hence, any deviations from these in the studio (even if they make sense) are going to be very dissatisfying and jarring.

I think extrapolation/imagination is a big part of it too, for me at least. Often the key melodies/hooks in a live recording are a little murky or unclear, so you expect them to sound a certain way in the studio, and this way may never have been intended by the makers of the music. The quick and dirty example I can think of is Dragon Slayer. The studio version disappointed me because in my mind the bouncy melody in the verse was way brighter. While the 2019 boot is definitely bouncier, upon returning to it I realised it wasn't quite as bouncy as I remembered. P.S. I need to stop using the word bouncy.

And a final point: when we listen to a boot I think expectations are loose, and hence it becomes easier to like the music. We become more accepting of limitations of the music since it is being delivered in a very coarse and limiting form. Furthermore, the whole time we can happily assume that the studio version will be better. And then the studio version comes out, and at that point we are already highly familiar with the music, and so disappointment becomes more likely even if the studio version remains faithful to the bootleg (as you mentioned).

[foxtrot]

BoomCheese wrote:

Prominent music psychology theories (if people are interested, two good ones are Huron's ITPRA theory and Juslin's BRECVEMA framework) posit that much of the pleasure of music comes from being able to predict "events" in our environment, which is inherently satisfying to humans as it is key to our survival.

love this idea.

BoomCheese wrote:

And a final point: when we listen to a boot I think expectations are loose, and hence it becomes easier to like the music. We become more accepting of limitations of the music since it is being delivered in a very coarse and limiting form. Furthermore, the whole time we can happily assume that the studio version will be better. And then the studio version comes out, and at that point we are already highly familiar with the music, and so disappointment becomes more likely even if the studio version remains faithful to the bootleg (as you mentioned).

this is why i reckon max of 5 or 6 listens to new songs is ideal. you get to know them just enough to love them and be excited, but you're not so intimately acquainted that their structure is completely imprinted

[destiny]

Trying to not go fucking crazy right now. Spoiler free for this AC shit. I know this forum is ground zero but fuck. I'm going nuts. I'm seeing them on saturday with my boyfriend who is coming back from California. Very emotional experience. I wanna yell "What does a slap on a jelly ass mean?" to Panda

[Fovrodi]

“I wanted these hyper-sexual images to interject into talking about a more general love and then suddenly it's like,” he makes a spanking motion, “because I find that sort of happens... it's weird.”
https://www.gq.com/story/meet-panda-bear-again

[kafkaesque]

scrambledgreggs wrote:

walkedlikeadog2 wrote:

Another random thought: I’m beginning to go through the boots for the first time (skipping songs that will likely be on the next record). I heard the 2019 version of passerby, and it’s funny knowing that the melody change up from that version to the 2021 version was controversial initially! I’m having the exact opposite sensation, listening to the 2019 melody it sounds totally inverted and awkward to me lol. I definitely find that I prefer the 2021 melody but also maybe speaks to the power of that simple call and response, that people could find so much attachment in both versions? Did anyone else who abstained from the boots until recently find the same thing? Also I found the autotune to be nice, but again didn’t feel overwhelmingly moved by it, not more so than the studio versions anyways!

I was never attached to the Passerby boot, I think I heard it once at the show I went to in 2019 and then pretty much forgot about it. going back to it later I barely notice the difference in the melody of the first part, but the difference between the bleary autotuned ending of the 2019 version and the more subtle studio version buried behind Panda's vocals is kind of colossal. I love both of them now but can't help but imagine an alternate universe where the autotune ending was preserved and extended in a pristine studio version

exactly this. i am so sad that ending will never be in a studio version.

[dio]

what's even like happening now (don't tell me plz). Feel so cut off during my tour info sabbatical. My friend saw them last night in Boston but I told him not to spoil much. I have 1.5 weeks to go. I wanna kinda be a lil surprised. A couple things freebirded thru due to playing around with going to Live subforum at all. Now I know I must not... I am not even truly safe here...

[unrecordednight]

you won't be disappointed dio! if you want a little taste without knowing any actual songs/albums i'll put a little tease in spoilers:

Spoiler: show

no 100% brand new jams, lots of time skiffs and time skiffs 2 as expected, with a mix of older stuff including a couple that are huge "holy fuck i can't believe they're playing that!!" surprises and/or fan favorites. definitely worth it to go in cold and be surprised when they play those few

[natios]

just realized that all my demoitis for passerby will be gone as soon as they release a 2019 soundboard (and music box in full) and now i’m happy and hopeful

[natios]

i don’t think i want to listen to early song versions before studio ever again…

[dio]

unrecordednight wrote:

you won't be disappointed dio! if you want a little taste without knowing any actual songs/albums i'll put a little tease in spoilers:

Spoiler: show

no 100% brand new jams, lots of time skiffs and time skiffs 2 as expected, with a mix of older stuff including a couple that are huge "holy fuck i can't believe they're playing that!!" surprises and/or fan favorites. definitely worth it to go in cold and be surprised when they play those few

sweet, thanks man, this helps. Now to speculate about when they intro totally new songs... tour is long enough that it seems plausible.

[natios]

i was going to say touring stuff for the second new album would be a new thing but they toured stuff for ts 2 lol

[Fovrodi]

I remember balking at Dragon Slayer being the opener but it makes so much sense and I love this song so much. It's weird, made a point to avoid demoitis but still empathize with everyone. Not that this was the most extreme case for you folks

[Fonz]

Hellomark wrote:

This might come off kinda weird but idk if people who weren't there at the time can fully understand how special and magical the 07/08 MPP stuff was.

This felt like something in the music world being done for the very first time, which is extremely rare nowadays. The wash of sounds in the mix was like liquid ecstasy for the ears and it felt like the 21st century of music would be kicked off in a magical way with this album. Not much has matched this since as far as bands or albums but Time Skiffs comes close. Overall a masterclass of mixing and creative decisions. I was a sophomore in college at the time and saw them live after this album came out. Felt amazing being a fan at the time.

Edit: I remember a funny pre-Rick roll of a supposed freebird of this album got us all excited. Someone uploaded Paul McCartneys Simply Having A Wonderful Christmas Time, and it took a second after downloading realizing it wasn’t a freebirded track lol. The opening piano had me on the edge of my seat though haha.

[tealtimes]

Fovrodi wrote:

I remember balking at Dragon Slayer being the opener but it makes so much sense and I love this song so much. It's weird, made a point to avoid demoitis but still empathize with everyone. Not that this was the most extreme case for you folks

Felt the same way, but decided I didn't remember it well enough from 2019 boots to judge and left it there. Good decision in the long-run, DS really eased me into the aesthetic of the album

[Hash]

Fonz wrote:

Hellomark wrote:

This might come off kinda weird but idk if people who weren't there at the time can fully understand how special and magical the 07/08 MPP stuff was.

This felt like something in the music world being done for the very first time, which is extremely rare nowadays. The wash of sounds in the mix was like liquid ecstasy for the ears and it felt like the 21st century of music would be kicked off in a magical way with this album. Not much has matched this since as far as bands or albums but Time Skiffs comes close. Overall a masterclass of mixing and creative decisions. I was a sophomore in college at the time and saw them live after this album came out. Felt amazing being a fan at the time.

This may seem pedantic but I don't think you guys are talking about the exact same thing...




What was crazy for me as someone who'd only just got into them in late 2006 was the fact that they were playing a bunch of brand new songs before Strawberry Jam had even freebirded.

But yeah once really good quality bootlegs were coming out, like the Midi festival videos and the NPR recording of their 930 Club show, I listened over and over again and had so much fun.