Collected Animals

After repeated listens, I think everything doesn't totally click with me.

Not a big fan of these "random arpeggios" in the background, in the first part. What I usually love about their songwriting is their unique way of blending sounds and dynamics into their rhythmic patterns and melodies, which creates something like a driving force, even when the song is slow. Usually, every sound seems to fall into place, exactly where it was intended. I can't feel all of that in the first minutes. It's like Avey's voice was just put over the arpeggios, and the arpeggios themselves sound like random playing around a few notes... Sounds like filler instrumentations, and the result is a bit static, imo. :/

It gets better and better though. My favorite part is the last one (from 17:25 to the end), in which I can fully recognize what I love about their music, at last : Avey, Panda and all the sounds responding to each other, to create something dynamic and cohesive, that flows in a beautiful way. I especially love Noah's delicate singing.

I also feel like the transitions between each part don't work as well as on other "patchwork songs" like on Fall Be Kind, in Alvin Row, Mr. Fingers, or even TTG.

I hope it will grow on me but I'll stop listening to it until the album comes out.

I completely love defeat and have listened to it probably 20 times already, the only thing I kind of wish they'd kept from the music box version (which tbh is still probably the best version in my mind) is the 2nd section repeating the same lyrics... 'there was not a sound' and the ensuing kind of aural chaos was just a bit more impactful to me, either way i love it and will always have both versions anyway (hopefully a hq version of mbv version soon as well)

also just to to say, underappreciated part but i love the kind of cricket noise after the 'isn't it now's

I completely love defeat and have listened to it probably 20 times already, the only thing I kind of wish they'd kept from the music box version (which tbh is still probably the best version in my mind) is the 2nd section repeating the same lyrics... 'there was not a sound' and the ensuing kind of aural chaos was just a bit more impactful to me, either way i love it and will always have both versions anyway (hopefully a hq version of mbv version soon as well)

Totally agree with this but thank fuck we got what we did instead of a Midnight Special, Jabba, et al. It's still brilliant and thanks for the reminder that the Music Box version may well come out after TS2.

corrie wrote:

I completely love defeat and have listened to it probably 20 times already, the only thing I kind of wish they'd kept from the music box version (which tbh is still probably the best version in my mind) is the 2nd section repeating the same lyrics... 'there was not a sound' and the ensuing kind of aural chaos was just a bit more impactful to me, either way i love it and will always have both versions anyway (hopefully a hq version of mbv version soon as well)

Totally agree with this but thank fuck we got what we did instead of a Midnight Special, Jabba, et al. It's still brilliant and thanks for the reminder that the Music Box version may well come out after TS2.

oh yeah in no way taking away from this (de) feat from the boys, the studio is absolutely glorious and everything i hoped for, they nailed it and i knew the studio version would be different from the mbv version, it evolved differently but still perfectly...
it kind of makes me think though, some of my favourite releases by bands are when they record themselves live and release it as an album, captures a certain magic which i think we sum up here very well as demoitis...
my favourite flaming lips release is 7 skies h3, it is really a lot more unhinged than anything they've released in the last 20 years and was culled from a 24 hour long live recording, there is a certain energy that comes with live versions that is difficult to capture in a studio...
for me, something like tangerine reef was really amazing and captured that same thing for anco, the live magic...
defeat is capturing that magic in the studio, it makes me wonder how the final version came about, maybe they captured the vast majority in 1 take and did minimal touch ups and really captured the live feeling in the studio, needless to say if the rest of the songs capture the same energy this will comfortably be one of their best ever albums

also, i feel it's interesting that when they really seem to hit their stride production wise is when they work with people in a pop/RnB/neo-soul sphere, maybe pushes both parties slightly out of their comfort zones (ie. MPP), leads to really interesting results and where AC exist between accessible and inaccessible perspectives

Agreed, corrie. I'm find their self-produced stuff recorded at Drop of Sun less fascinating. IMO a band should work with engineers who, if not co-producers, can really translate the musician's vision through recording techniques. The Drop of Sun stuff sounds to me like Dave-Run-Wild with the engineer (whose name I forget) just recording in the style that HE likes without much consideration to the actual music and its aims.

yeah, and it makes me wonder what something as ridiculous as a rick rubin prduced AC album would sound like, could really see it bringing out the best in them, and especially noah i feel like leans into the more pop production stylesalike they kind of need an outside voice to edit them to really make it shine

having said that, my favourite production on any AC related project is still down there, deakin really nailed it with the swamp vibes, I would vote either external producer or just let deakin do it, lock him in a room for a week with the album and it will turn out amazing, not sure if he produced sleep cycle but that is also a 10 out of 10 production wise

and also, a project that is by its nature a lot more exploratory (like tangerine reef) really benefits from their unique production sensibilities

Alvinrowx, you're hearing the song the way I hear it. Thanks for putting your thoughts out there. <3

After repeated listens, I think everything doesn't totally click with me.

Not a big fan of these "random arpeggios" in the background, in the first part. What I usually love about their songwriting is their unique way of blending sounds and dynamics into their rhythmic patterns and melodies, which creates something like a driving force, even when the song is slow. Usually, every sound seems to fall into place, exactly where it was intended. I can't feel all of that in the first minutes. It's like Avey's voice was just put over the arpeggios, and the arpeggios themselves sound like random playing around a few notes... Sounds like filler instrumentations, and the result is a bit static, imo. :/

It gets better and better though. My favorite part is the last one (from 17:25 to the end), in which I can fully recognize what I love about their music, at last : Avey, Panda and all the sounds responding to each other, to create something dynamic and cohesive, that flows in a beautiful way. I especially love Noah's delicate singing.

I also feel like the transitions between each part don't work as well as on other "patchwork songs" like on Fall Be Kind, in Alvin Row, Mr. Fingers, or even TTG.

I hope it will grow on me but I'll stop listening to it until the album comes out.

Great post - it doesn't reflect my own feeling about the song. But I'm grateful for the diversity of opinions, and I can totally get your response to the opening section vocals etc.

As for the transitions . . . they work for me on Defeat . . . they don't work for me so far on Magicians. That's the one I'm anxious to hear in the studio version - because I love the parts of that song but I'm not sold that they fit together like they should.

My defeat has arrived safe and sound courtesy of my old landlord lol. Got a purple one

alvinrowx wrote:

After repeated listens, I think everything doesn't totally click with me.

Not a big fan of these "random arpeggios" in the background, in the first part. What I usually love about their songwriting is their unique way of blending sounds and dynamics into their rhythmic patterns and melodies, which creates something like a driving force, even when the song is slow. Usually, every sound seems to fall into place, exactly where it was intended. I can't feel all of that in the first minutes. It's like Avey's voice was just put over the arpeggios, and the arpeggios themselves sound like random playing around a few notes... Sounds like filler instrumentations, and the result is a bit static, imo. :/

It gets better and better though. My favorite part is the last one (from 17:25 to the end), in which I can fully recognize what I love about their music, at last : Avey, Panda and all the sounds responding to each other, to create something dynamic and cohesive, that flows in a beautiful way. I especially love Noah's delicate singing.

I also feel like the transitions between each part don't work as well as on other "patchwork songs" like on Fall Be Kind, in Alvin Row, Mr. Fingers, or even TTG.

I hope it will grow on me but I'll stop listening to it until the album comes out.

Great post - it doesn't reflect my own feeling about the song. But I'm grateful for the diversity of opinions, and I can totally get your response to the opening section vocals etc.

As for the transitions . . . they work for me on Defeat . . . they don't work for me so far on Magicians. That's the one I'm anxious to hear in the studio version - because I love the parts of that song but I'm not sold that they fit together like they should.

I hear the first part the same way I hear stuff like Daffy Duck - just kinda amorphous waves of ambient sound that create a dreamy effect. other parts are much more rhythmic or cohesive.

the transitions in these types of AC tracks are always less 'neat' and 'compositional' and more about just fluidly shifting the atmosphere. like they're often basically just fade ins of new parts - bros, safer, graze etc.

Agreed, corrie. I'm find their self-produced stuff recorded at Drop of Sun less fascinating. IMO a band should work with engineers who, if not co-producers, can really translate the musician's vision through recording techniques. The Drop of Sun stuff sounds to me like Dave-Run-Wild with the engineer (whose name I forget) just recording in the style that HE likes without much consideration to the actual music and its aims.

Hit the nail on the head, and agree with corrie too.
7s is still inaccessible to me for this reason, but it's definitely a mood thing. I gotta be in the Dave zone to vibe with new Avey Tare records. Down there and Eucalyptus have perfect production thanks to deakin's hand, meanwhile cows was a little flat and 7s is overflowing with flavour

Alvinrowx, you're hearing the song the way I hear it. Thanks for putting your thoughts out there. <3

Thanks! <3 Great to see I'm not alone haha.

alvinrowx wrote:

After repeated listens, I think everything doesn't totally click with me.

Not a big fan of these "random arpeggios" in the background, in the first part. What I usually love about their songwriting is their unique way of blending sounds and dynamics into their rhythmic patterns and melodies, which creates something like a driving force, even when the song is slow. Usually, every sound seems to fall into place, exactly where it was intended. I can't feel all of that in the first minutes. It's like Avey's voice was just put over the arpeggios, and the arpeggios themselves sound like random playing around a few notes... Sounds like filler instrumentations, and the result is a bit static, imo. :/

It gets better and better though. My favorite part is the last one (from 17:25 to the end), in which I can fully recognize what I love about their music, at last : Avey, Panda and all the sounds responding to each other, to create something dynamic and cohesive, that flows in a beautiful way. I especially love Noah's delicate singing.

I also feel like the transitions between each part don't work as well as on other "patchwork songs" like on Fall Be Kind, in Alvin Row, Mr. Fingers, or even TTG.

I hope it will grow on me but I'll stop listening to it until the album comes out.

Great post - it doesn't reflect my own feeling about the song. But I'm grateful for the diversity of opinions, and I can totally get your response to the opening section vocals etc.

As for the transitions . . . they work for me on Defeat . . . they don't work for me so far on Magicians. That's the one I'm anxious to hear in the studio version - because I love the parts of that song but I'm not sold that they fit together like they should.

Yes, always a pleasure to read all the different opinions about their songs... My opinion could change later, but I want to listen to it again in the context of the album, so I'll wait...

andthephantom wrote:

alvinrowx wrote:

After repeated listens, I think everything doesn't totally click with me.

Not a big fan of these "random arpeggios" in the background, in the first part. What I usually love about their songwriting is their unique way of blending sounds and dynamics into their rhythmic patterns and melodies, which creates something like a driving force, even when the song is slow. Usually, every sound seems to fall into place, exactly where it was intended. I can't feel all of that in the first minutes. It's like Avey's voice was just put over the arpeggios, and the arpeggios themselves sound like random playing around a few notes... Sounds like filler instrumentations, and the result is a bit static, imo. :/

It gets better and better though. My favorite part is the last one (from 17:25 to the end), in which I can fully recognize what I love about their music, at last : Avey, Panda and all the sounds responding to each other, to create something dynamic and cohesive, that flows in a beautiful way. I especially love Noah's delicate singing.

I also feel like the transitions between each part don't work as well as on other "patchwork songs" like on Fall Be Kind, in Alvin Row, Mr. Fingers, or even TTG.

I hope it will grow on me but I'll stop listening to it until the album comes out.

Great post - it doesn't reflect my own feeling about the song. But I'm grateful for the diversity of opinions, and I can totally get your response to the opening section vocals etc.

As for the transitions . . . they work for me on Defeat . . . they don't work for me so far on Magicians. That's the one I'm anxious to hear in the studio version - because I love the parts of that song but I'm not sold that they fit together like they should.

I hear the first part the same way I hear stuff like Daffy Duck - just kinda amorphous waves of ambient sound that create a dreamy effect. other parts are much more rhythmic or cohesive.

the transitions in these types of AC tracks are always less 'neat' and 'compositional' and more about just fluidly shifting the atmosphere. like they're often basically just fade ins of new parts - bros, safer, graze etc.

Yes, this is what I almost hear in the first part, but usually, when they make this kind of songs, I feel something like a pulsatile energy (I don't know how to describe it in English, sorry ) that makes the song go forward, even if it has amorphous waves of ambient sound. It gives it an impression of movement or tension that makes me feel every sound/rhythm is deliberate.

I see a lot of people predicting this will be on their next album. Has there been any indication of this from the band that I missed or is it just peoples’ predictions? I would think it’s possible this’ll be like Safer and just stay a single.

I see a lot of people predicting this will be on their next album. Has there been any indication of this from the band that I missed or is it just peoples’ predictions? I would think it’s possible this’ll be like Safer and just stay a single.

yes, it has been confirmed by avey, deakin, and william

I wonder if we can change the topic name to “Defeat - confirmed to be on TS2” bc this is a valid question but has been asked on almost every page

nickfleece wrote:

I see a lot of people predicting this will be on their next album. Has there been any indication of this from the band that I missed or is it just peoples’ predictions? I would think it’s possible this’ll be like Safer and just stay a single.

yes, it has been confirmed by avey, deakin, and william

Wake up babe fifth anco member just dropped

^lol

btw anyone know if it's been confirmed whether or not defeat will be on the album? I lurk this forum relentlessly and am surprised no one has discussed this by now

we should make a new thread that's like "confirmed details for next AC release" - a FAQs if you will

64 minutes
9 songs (yes, including defeat)
song titles didn't change
release date tba

not sure if there's more william has shared publicly -- that's what i remember

How is William related to the band?

He writes all their lyrics/music

where there's a will there's an iam

willie is "david tare," lead vocalist

willie is ed droste

willie is avey's stolen notebook

The "look thru pinholes to streets unguarded" line always reminded me of OoT, like that part after you wake up Talon and go through that little crawlspace at the castle. For whatever reason, because those streets are definitely guarded

andthephantom wrote:

alvinrowx wrote:

After repeated listens, I think everything doesn't totally click with me.

Not a big fan of these "random arpeggios" in the background, in the first part. What I usually love about their songwriting is their unique way of blending sounds and dynamics into their rhythmic patterns and melodies, which creates something like a driving force, even when the song is slow. Usually, every sound seems to fall into place, exactly where it was intended. I can't feel all of that in the first minutes. It's like Avey's voice was just put over the arpeggios, and the arpeggios themselves sound like random playing around a few notes... Sounds like filler instrumentations, and the result is a bit static, imo. :/

It gets better and better though. My favorite part is the last one (from 17:25 to the end), in which I can fully recognize what I love about their music, at last : Avey, Panda and all the sounds responding to each other, to create something dynamic and cohesive, that flows in a beautiful way. I especially love Noah's delicate singing.

I also feel like the transitions between each part don't work as well as on other "patchwork songs" like on Fall Be Kind, in Alvin Row, Mr. Fingers, or even TTG.

I hope it will grow on me but I'll stop listening to it until the album comes out.

Great post - it doesn't reflect my own feeling about the song. But I'm grateful for the diversity of opinions, and I can totally get your response to the opening section vocals etc.

As for the transitions . . . they work for me on Defeat . . . they don't work for me so far on Magicians. That's the one I'm anxious to hear in the studio version - because I love the parts of that song but I'm not sold that they fit together like they should.

I hear the first part the same way I hear stuff like Daffy Duck - just kinda amorphous waves of ambient sound that create a dreamy effect. other parts are much more rhythmic or cohesive.

the transitions in these types of AC tracks are always less 'neat' and 'compositional' and more about just fluidly shifting the atmosphere. like they're often basically just fade ins of new parts - bros, safer, graze etc.

hi all, longtime lurker drawn out of hiding by this incredible song.

i agree with a lot of what alvinrowx said and wanna throw in my two cents, for what it's worth (about 2 cents, probably).

firstly, i wanna say i feel like they did it. i have quibbles, but this still feels like such a profound success, a real high point in their discog when ppl look back on it in 50 years. i really feel like i can rest easy, which hasn't always been true with their studio recordings.

like many here, i had such an intense and moving experience the first time i heard the music box village version, and i think it will always have a special place in my heart. and esp given taht we might get an official live recording, i feel very happy that i'll be able to have both versions. no need for their only to be one.

ok delving in:

personally, i feel like 22 mins is a bit too slow. i don't want quite as fast as mbv, but i'd be quite happy with this thing being like 18.

i like the idea of "Animal Collective return with a 22-min song!", which was how the press covered it. but i wonder if that was part of avey's motivation in a way; he wanted to have written a >20 minute song because the massiveness of that number j seemed fitting.

personally, i think it feels plenty massive at like 17-19... and this is all by way of saying i think the first part suffers the most from the slower pace from recent shows and the studio version. it feels a little plodding to me, whereas it felt more urgent in the mbv performance (this is also true but to a far lesser extent about the final DEFEAT!s imo).

i don't think the verses of the 3rd part suffer at all from the pace tho. in fact, i feel like the studio version with those panda harmonies is THE definitive version of the third part, which is a change for me because a part of me will always imagine the version of this album that would have come out in 2020 and only feature avey, deakin and, geologist. i love panda, both solo and band, don't get me wrong, but i feel like that's the kind of radical move that they aren't really willing to make anymore. sure you get man of oil or soundtrack stuff, but i don't think they can be as playful and experimental with members in the big releases (i'm in the "get out of this Domino contract, go back to Paw Tracks, and starting being freaky" camp)

back to the song... i mean, goddamn, the first time i heard the studio "onccccee wasss a goooodd wayy (oncee was a goodd way)" i nearly lost it, and then "And praise for the underdog / That was you with the goodd dooooooog" came and i DID lose it. just incredible. this song gives me a feeling i've never had before.

(incidentally the synth line--or piano--that plays tantalizingly behind the lyrics and does that very debussy-sounding descent around the first line of the pt 3 versus is insanely good as counterpoint and just as sound)

re: foxtrot, i think you are totally right in making comparisons to safer, graze, etc. there is so much precedent for what happens here in songs that are widely loved... AND YET. I guess what i'm saying is that a lot of my problems with the transition and the 2nd section totally feel like my fault for being attached to live stuff, and ppl hearing this for the first time would never guess all my ridiculous complaints.

but yeah, don't really like the transition that much. the drumming feels very graze in a re-tread kind of way (there are moments that feel very feels, to be fair, but to me it channels that era more than it j copies it). the singing in the transition is probably what i like least. to me it just feels very enya. and i mean, i like enya, but i never would have thought defeat of all songs needed some enya. also... avey's bass, that ascending, descending riff. i just canNOT get into avey's use of bass. i feel like the textures always sound sorta goofy and plunky and basic, and totally takes me out of the out-of-world vibes of the rest of the song. i sorta can vibe with it on Saturdays, and i get his whole thing about how new instruments can make you think in different ways, but to me it j doesn't work too well.

i'm p happy with the middle proper tho. it doesn't hit like it did live at MBV (i still wish they had j incorporated some of the instruments used by the collaborators at MBV, but oh well) or even elsewhere... but also, it. is. not. live. it's a recording! so i feel like it's ok if it doesn't quite have that live energy with freer vocalization from avey.

anyway, those are my minor gripes. it feels good to express them, sorry if they make no sense to you! i still goddamn love this song and am j so so grateful for it; been playing it non-stop, and it's a wild, multi-layered journey every time.

lmao i'm truly sorry that post was so long

nah good post even if I don't fully agree. I hear you about the length but I'm touched that they fully committing to stretching their legs and taking their time with it... like this song was fully worth being as patient as possible...no condensing needed. The re-listenability factor for me comes from the fact that this is one of their densest synth-beds I've ever heard, and most beautiful. I love how there are so many repeating motifs and like "riffs" but there's also this exploratory jam-y feeling to all the details of the harmonies and synths....

It will also come alive again in the context of the LP. Especially if it is indeed in the middle like we've been lead to believe.

where there's a will there's an iam

i have strep and need to be hospitalized because I laughed at this so hard it tore out my esophagus.

Great post, new guy. X

Epic first post!

Great to hear your thoughts. Don’t agree with all of them but can totally see your perspective.

Sweet post kwanzan!
On the part about the vocals entering that transition to the 2nd section, I like the vocal part itself but wish they'd held off a few more repeats before the vocals entered there. Only part of the song that feels a bit rushed to me. I think that transition is really successful besides that though

favorite section right now is the 2nd one - impossible to not turn it up by the end, it's such a bop

Sweet post kwanzan!
On the part about the vocals entering that transition to the 2nd section, I like the vocal part itself but wish they'd held off a few more repeats before the vocals entered there. Only part of the song that feels a bit rushed to me. I think that transition is really successful besides that though

yeah it could definitely have gone on longer, maybe that's just how it turned out in the base take?

Love this part and feel like it could repeat for another minute and I’d be very happy. That said, it’s basically the same length that the build up bit was in the live version so makes sense it’d stay around the same.