[BORCHENKO??]

why?

[Losercore]

I just hate that every time he reviews something related to anco he just says something along the lines of "theres a lot of effects on it" and then gives it like a 4 or 5

[Goku]

BORCHENKO?? wrote:

why?

When you spend a lot of time around the self-proclaimed “indie” “community”, you start to realize a lot of trends in the way in which people consume new music. If someone decides to listen to a record that came out, say, 10 or 15 years ago, turning to the opinion of music critics isn’t necessarily something they do. Often, they’ll listen to that record because a friend recommended it, or a modern band they enjoy listed them as an influence, or a music score aggregation site (Metacritic, Rateyourmusic, etc.) has it highly ranked. Sometimes people discover old records because of a desire to become more acclaimed with a certain genre, or because they enjoy label digging. I’ve found that this is often not the case with brand new releases.

The modern music fan, specifically the imageboard or soulseek chatroom dwelling breed, instead of going on genre descriptions, track previews, or even the classic “the cover art looked neat so I decided to listen it”, are more and more turning to the opinions of music critics to shape their taste. Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with this. Music critics exist to help cull the bad from the good – or do they?

Of the many different styles of critical journalism, the one that has risen to the forefront in the music industry is the long-form “academic” style review – reviews that often run long of 1,000 words and attempt to frame the album with over-abundant comparisons to other records, and words like “lush”, “glacial”, and “sparse”. Adjectives can sure be pretty sometimes, huh? These reviewers (think Piero Scaruffi, or Ian Cohen) go on and on about an album, often using enough post-modernist jargon and descriptions of the artists personal lives to fill their word count quotas. They then go on to assign the record an arbitrary score, often on a 1 to 10 scale. Another popular review format is the “vlog”, or video review. These critics require a little more “personality” than the writers do, or else no one would watch them. The best example I can give you for a music vlogger is Anthony Joe Biden. He’s also an adjective abuser, but he makes up for it with “funny” jokes.

On a surface level, this doesn’t seem like that bad of a thing, and, in a perfect world, it’s not. However, more and more people who are immersing themselves into music outside of “popular indie”, are turning entirely to the opinions of critics to shape their taste.

Why is this a problem, exactly? The problem is that the style of reviews that people often decide to parrot to shape their own tastes is ultimately useless. Music criticism, by in large, is mostly useless (and I say this as a professionally published critic).

So what kind of criticism is “good”? Well, the right answer to that question is no kind, but there is an alternative. Instead of pumping out wordy reviews that look like they were written for a freshman level English course, reviews should focus instead on being a “sales pitch”, either for or against the album. Are these reviews better than the other styles? From a writing standpoint, the answer is obviously not. Academic reviews, if all goes right, help the readers learn more about music. The sales pitch style review (see the work of Robert Christgau) is great because it condenses everything into a bite-sized recommendation either for or against the record, but often teaches the readers next to nothing about the objectivity of music.

Therein lies the problem – music fans try very hard to curate and cultivate a unique and individual taste, but oftentimes they will only listen to what is “critically approved” in their social circles. Go on any music website and it’s pretty easy to see that the top 10 albums of everyone are almost exactly same. The average music fan has lost the ability to think for themselves. Their opinions are borrowed from your Joe Bidens or your Scaruffis, which ultimately limits the appreciation and scope of all the music available to them. There are many different conclusions you can draw from this, but the fact still stands at the end of the day – Everyone listens to and praises the same 50 or so albums and discusses them to death without realizing how harmful establishing a “canon” is. A truly innovative, good, or unique record can arrive and be reviewed poorly by an incompetent but popular reviewer (Joe Biden) and be pushed aside forever by these fans because of their desire to seem like part of an “elite” group that only listens to “good” music, when in reality all they listen to is what is well-received in the indie circles.

[jetski]

yeah but all that shit doesn't matter and you can listen to whatever you want, so what's the big deal?

discussion for another thread anyways

[Goku]

Victor Borge wrote:

yeah but all that shit doesn't matter and you can listen to whatever you want, so what's the big deal?

discussion for another thread anyways

that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying, and that (forgive my use of the phrase) meme critics like Joe Biden only hurt that mentality

[jetski]

I'd disagree that "The average music fan has lost the ability to think for themselves." If anything I think people are indulging their tastes more than ever thanks to the ease with which you can find new music nowadays - with Spotify, soundcloud, blogs, bandcamp, etc there's more avenues than ever before

Joe Biden, Pitchfork etc are overrepresented so it seems like they're louder voices than they really are. I don't think they're actively that harmful

[Goku]

Victor Borge wrote:

I'd disagree that "The average music fan has lost the ability to think for themselves." If anything I think people are indulging their tastes more than ever thanks to the ease with which you can find new music nowadays - with Spotify, soundcloud, blogs, bandcamp, etc there's more avenues than ever before

Joe Biden, Pitchfork etc are overrepresented so it seems like they're louder voices than they really are. I don't think they're actively that harmful

What I've seen happen time and time again is that people do start that journey into what all is really out there, then they end up on President Biden or /mu/ and now suddenly To Be Kind is their AOTY 2014.

[Goku]

It's just sort of this subconscious need by many to be a part of the "cultural" ""zeitgiest"", and it's perpetuated even further by the "music friends" they've made falling into that same trap. Establishing a canon is harmful.

[Synusoid]

In general, I've started to dislike reviews simply because I think they create expectations for what someone should get out of an album. If Joe Biden says "I get this message from X album", then I'll be searching for that exact message or waiting for it to hit me when I listen. It distracts from being able to form my own view on the work

Victor Borge wrote:

Joe Biden, Pitchfork etc are overrepresented so it seems like they're louder voices than they really are. I don't think they're actively that harmful

This. In reality, most people don't know about Pitchfork, and certainly fewer people are familiar with Anthony Joe Biden.

[GoodBoyMitch]

I love when I log on to see if a cool interview or Deak update might be shared, and instead I have to sift through 3 pages of 15 year olds talking about pitchfork. This is truly why this thread and board was created, and why it should be maintained. Excellent work! You are really doing a great job at addressing the AC fanbase's reputation as a cult of snobby ass clowns!

everyone shut the fuck up and listen !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAf6hf9pTqU

[Goku]

GoodBoyMitch wrote:

I love when I log on to see if a cool interview or Deak update might be shared, and instead I have to sift through 3 pages of 15 year olds talking about pitchfork. This is truly why this thread and board was created, and why it should be maintained. Excellent work! You are really doing a great job at addressing the AC fanbase's reputation as a cult of snobby ass clowns!

everyone shut the fuck up and listen !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAf6hf9pTqU

Yikes. Next post please.

[Texas Trill]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying Goku, but I think part of that particular view is also a little too reductive and cynical. I'm sure there are thousands of people who actually do like To Be Kind a whole lot and if they found out about it from a music critic or a community like /mu/, then I think that's a positive aspect about those things. I don't think there is anyone who has cookie cutter tastes, even if it seems that way there are always outliers and nostalgic bands that people hold dear to them

Also I agree for the most part about Pitchfork reviews. I seldom read them, but they can be occasionally helpful for finding new stuff when something is highly rated. I take it with a grain of salt though. But I also get a lot of even better music recommendations from forums like this or phantasytour since the recs are always positive and I can actually interact with the posters. Besides the reviews, I do like pitchfork for news, interviews, and especially the festival in Chicago. If it wasn't for P4k fest I would've never seen AC on a sweet Summer's night

[GoodBoyMitch]

No no no! Here! Shut the fuck up about P666k!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6UXEeVSbPY

[jetski]

Stop being a dick GoodBoyMitch

We don't have much to talk about right now, when the album is out this thread will be more on-topic

[Goku]

Texas Trill wrote:

I agree with a lot of what you're saying Goku, but I think part of that particular view is also a little too reductive and cynical. I'm sure there are thousands of people who actually do like To Be Kind a whole lot and if they found out about it from a music critic or a community like /mu/, then I think that's a positive aspect about those things. I don't think there is anyone who has cookie cutter tastes, even if it seems that way there are always outliers and nostalgic bands that people hold dear to them

Also I agree for the most part about Pitchfork reviews. I seldom read them, but they can be occasionally helpful for finding new stuff when something is highly rated. I take it with a grain of salt though. But I also get a lot of even better music recommendations from forums like this or phantasytour since the recs are always positive and I can actually interact with the posters. Besides the reviews, I do like pitchfork for news, interviews, and especially the festival in Chicago. If it wasn't for P4k fest I would've never seen AC on a sweet Summer's night

I see what you mean. I'm not out here attempting to imply that EVERYONE is the kind of person who didn't get the irony in hipsterrunoff. I just think that the establishing of a canon as a whole is harmful to discovering bands, you know? And the whole "us vs them" or "good taste" mentality is as well.

[GoodBoyMitch]

Here's something you could talk about! HERE, HEAR!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYsSNt6UkWI

or! pk wants help ! http://spiritualized.band/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12878

[Goku]

GoodBoyMitch wrote:

No no no! Here! Shut the fuck up about P666k!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6UXEeVSbPY

Learn to embed youtube videos before you come in here talking trash.

[GoodBoyMitch]

I am the one talking trash?!?!? I really think you guys should shhhh and listen!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6kSE7ujgCM

or maybe even

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-INeMspNSQ0

[Goku]

GoodBoyMitch wrote:

I am the one talking trash?!?!? I really think you guys should shhhh and listen!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6kSE7ujgCM

or maybe even

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-INeMspNSQ0

Do you have any idea how it easy it is to embed youtube videos on this forum? There's a little button that says "youtube". You truly are a living testament to the phrase "idiot-proof" being an unrealistic descriptor.

[GoodBoyMitch]

embed?? i dont HAVE to! i like it more when its just links.

pete k has given this board a lot of cool intel and downloads. and now he needs help y'all

http://spiritualized.band/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12878

or this guy has other stuff to say too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzjuyCj471Y

[amber]

Sigh

[Goku]

I've already shared PeteK's post across all my social media. You're grounded. 10 Years Grounded. Go to your room.

[lucasmoreira]

i hope the lp comes with lyrics, even though they are not listed on the things included...

[Goku]

Me too. Although honestly there are still some AnCo songs that I love without having a clue what the lyrics actually are

[disconut]

You'd think that they would with the emphasis on vocals on this record.

[internetwolf]

Tropic of Cans wrote:

Pandasticus wrote:

James Russel wrote:

I really hope that that is what things shift towards in the future. I want to hear everyone's opinions, but only if they are actually real individual opinions, and not just whatever some writer's overlord is pigeonholing them into/paying them for.

Do you guys use RateYourMusic? It's pretty much what you just described. Just random people writing reviews for albums, where every review can be different and can look at the release from many angles. The average ratings on the site are pretty accurate for the most part. They are all user ratings too.

I do use and like RYM but c'mon, that place can be as snarky and caustic an environment as any music review site. Also seems heavily imbued with /mu/ ideologies and edginess.

Right. This is why I don't really use RYM. Its so obvious just by looking at the top rym albums that it's basically run by /mu/

[Synusoid]

RYM is a great site. I think it's useful for logging the albums you've listened to and for saving a list of albums that you might want to come back to later. Obviously people have their opinions about rating music, as do I, but regardless of what albums top the charts there, it's still a very intuitive place for finding music.

I've never posted in the forums nor do I even write reviews, but it's the main place I go to for browsing albums.

https://rateyourmusic.com/~Synusoid

[cujo]

Goku wrote:

BORCHENKO?? wrote:

why?

When you spend a lot of time around the self-proclaimed “indie” “community”, you start to realize a lot of trends in the way in which people consume new music. If someone decides to listen to a record that came out, say, 10 or 15 years ago, turning to the opinion of music critics isn’t necessarily something they do. Often, they’ll listen to that record because a friend recommended it, or a modern band they enjoy listed them as an influence, or a music score aggregation site (Metacritic, Rateyourmusic, etc.) has it highly ranked. Sometimes people discover old records because of a desire to become more acclaimed with a certain genre, or because they enjoy label digging. I’ve found that this is often not the case with brand new releases.

The modern music fan, specifically the imageboard or soulseek chatroom dwelling breed, instead of going on genre descriptions, track previews, or even the classic “the cover art looked neat so I decided to listen it”, are more and more turning to the opinions of music critics to shape their taste. Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with this. Music critics exist to help cull the bad from the good – or do they?

Of the many different styles of critical journalism, the one that has risen to the forefront in the music industry is the long-form “academic” style review – reviews that often run long of 1,000 words and attempt to frame the album with over-abundant comparisons to other records, and words like “lush”, “glacial”, and “sparse”. Adjectives can sure be pretty sometimes, huh? These reviewers (think Piero Scaruffi, or Ian Cohen) go on and on about an album, often using enough post-modernist jargon and descriptions of the artists personal lives to fill their word count quotas. They then go on to assign the record an arbitrary score, often on a 1 to 10 scale. Another popular review format is the “vlog”, or video review. These critics require a little more “personality” than the writers do, or else no one would watch them. The best example I can give you for a music vlogger is Anthony Joe Biden. He’s also an adjective abuser, but he makes up for it with “funny” jokes.

On a surface level, this doesn’t seem like that bad of a thing, and, in a perfect world, it’s not. However, more and more people who are immersing themselves into music outside of “popular indie”, are turning entirely to the opinions of critics to shape their taste.

Why is this a problem, exactly? The problem is that the style of reviews that people often decide to parrot to shape their own tastes is ultimately useless. Music criticism, by in large, is mostly useless (and I say this as a professionally published critic).

So what kind of criticism is “good”? Well, the right answer to that question is no kind, but there is an alternative. Instead of pumping out wordy reviews that look like they were written for a freshman level English course, reviews should focus instead on being a “sales pitch”, either for or against the album. Are these reviews better than the other styles? From a writing standpoint, the answer is obviously not. Academic reviews, if all goes right, help the readers learn more about music. The sales pitch style review (see the work of Robert Christgau) is great because it condenses everything into a bite-sized recommendation either for or against the record, but often teaches the readers next to nothing about the objectivity of music.

Therein lies the problem – music fans try very hard to curate and cultivate a unique and individual taste, but oftentimes they will only listen to what is “critically approved” in their social circles. Go on any music website and it’s pretty easy to see that the top 10 albums of everyone are almost exactly same. The average music fan has lost the ability to think for themselves. Their opinions are borrowed from your Joe Bidens or your Scaruffis, which ultimately limits the appreciation and scope of all the music available to them. There are many different conclusions you can draw from this, but the fact still stands at the end of the day – Everyone listens to and praises the same 50 or so albums and discusses them to death without realizing how harmful establishing a “canon” is. A truly innovative, good, or unique record can arrive and be reviewed poorly by an incompetent but popular reviewer (Joe Biden) and be pushed aside forever by these fans because of their desire to seem like part of an “elite” group that only listens to “good” music, when in reality all they listen to is what is well-received in the indie circles.

Victor Borge wrote:

yeah but all that shit doesn't matter and you can listen to whatever you want, so what's the big deal?

discussion for another thread anyways

This is where my cynicism comes in and I think of who owns what, how much of p4k and other sites/reviewers are getting paid owned by the massive LCD for music mogals.

Just saying nothing is for free and if u have the money to throw then you will do what you want to influence the music scene. That's why shit matters.

Edit: just read my post and Victor Borge in no way am I saying it to you, sorry, just continuing the conversation.

[Stanshant]

Goku wrote:

Joe Biden is one of the worst currently active HUMAN BEANS

[Sam]

Just walked into a cafe and heard unfamiliar Panda harmonies, for a second I thought I was at the next Baltimore Airport equivalent but it turned out to be midway through Doin' It Right.

I wanted to believe

[dio]

everyone just find the good content that is on rateyourmusic.com and if u wanna read (older mostly) album reviews written by this awesome writer who has a huge archive of comprehensive, well-written and funny reviews. on his new site he even begrudgingly like ac even tho he has much older taste... better than p4k.... there are options.. other blogs http://starling.rinet.ru/music/index.htm

[r1pvanw1nkl3]

i cant stand Joe Biden.... it seems like he has an idea of what he wants music to sound like and criticizes based off of that rather than addressing the work...

i feel like its silly how people wait for reviews for albums they're going to listen to anyway... your musical taste shouldn't need to be validated. i have no interest in painting with reviews once the album is released and i have my own opinion of it

[Freak]

Zero Cool wrote:

Ayy lmao http://www.tinymixtapes.com/features/20 ... ity-crisis

ayyy lmao I wrote that

also, I was on Joe Biden's podcast and I'm not sure he's a real human being. like, he just affects some cumulative critical stance that he collects from major outlets/his youtube comment section

I think Painting With is gon be hard for P4k to review, because its warm/psych/goofball aesthetic (from what I can gather based off the two singles/AC track record) runs against the cool/self-aware/cutting-edge aesthetic that's Big right now.

AC is old school establishment now. they helped spawn the radio chillwave of "hipster BBQ" indie pop that a lot of the more dissonant electronic music rn is working against. so P4k has to keep them at arms length like Radiohead.

but I feel like AC is uncool in an important way now, campfire reckoning

[coollodges]

GoodBoyMitch wrote:

I love when I log on to see if a cool interview or Deak update might be shared, and instead I have to sift through 3 pages of 15 year olds talking about pitchfork. This is truly why this thread and board was created, and why it should be maintained. Excellent work! You are really doing a great job at addressing the AC fanbase's reputation as a cult of snobby ass clowns!

everyone shut the fuck up and listen !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAf6hf9pTqU

get a load of this 16 year old!

[GoodBoyMitch]

haha close! (21) i can be very immature for my age

how old are you? maybe your number is close to mine!

http://spiritualized.band/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12878
http://spiritualized.band/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12878
http://spiritualized.band/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12878

!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uXuNPPuh8Q !!!

[Saferintheflowers]

wow ... nerds(haha). Anyways (eyes rolled) ... moving forward .. 16 more days till it freebirds (hehe)

[speen]

man, you guys got salty.

agree with Joe Biden or not, you have to respect that the guy has come as far as he has as an individual reviewer. he's putting his opinion on youtube and has gained a large following. pretty cool for him.

music criticism is such a touchy field, isnt there a thread for this?

[internetwolf]

demonclusters wrote:

man, you guys got salty.

agree with Joe Biden or not, you have to respect that the guy has come as far as he has as an individual reviewer. he's putting his opinion on youtube and has gained a large following. pretty cool for him.

music criticism is such a touchy field, isnt there a thread for this?

Yah I mean I don't usually agree with his opinion, but hes just a normal guy with an opinion. At least that's how I see it.

[alexpiercey]

Every time I listen to LitG on my phone, it tries to play The Burglars and I get super psyched then the most sad I can possibly be when it just sits there.

[eiki]

Edit: This post was really stupid and negative, so I'll just say this "Animal Collective".